Thread: The Crown BTS

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    #31
    Senior Member Run&Gun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahalpert View Post
    Meh. I see the point, of course. and I think that exact matching is the way to go if you want the film form to be invisible, which is their goal whether it should be or not

    But I think it's overblown. I mean, you don't want anything to look s*%tty, which is another story. But what if mismatching is the best look? Like getting a lower-contrast shot of the dark audience so you can see more detail? What are we matching, camera settings or visible detail level?

    People know they're watching video. Nobody is going to scream about foregrounding the camera. They probably wont even notice.

    I think that in coverage of a scripted scene, it makes sense to get exact matching. But I hate it when movies have completely consistent aesthetics throughout - same lighting designs and ratios, compositional logic etc. And I say that as a film buff and not a cameraman. It's boring! (Ok, not the same thing as mixing and matching within a scene.) But it seems like a sloppy kind of carefulness. Like - we're not going to work out when and where to deviate, we'll just shoot it all the same so there'll never be a problem.

    I like movies like Mesrine (part 1: killer instinct and part 2: public enemy number 1) - 2 fantastic Vincent Cassel gangster flicks for anyone who hasn't seen them! There was a nice variation of mood and aesthetic in there. Some visual palette cleansing. Not everyone has to mix it up like Natural Born Killers (genius movie btw) but I'd say this is the bare minimum (and yes I'm talking lighting not cameras but it's all aesthetics):

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    And that attitude right there is part of the reason the industry is going down the sh!ter.

    I’m not talking about different scenes in a movie trying to convey different moods. I’m talking about multi-camera productions where the cameras are supposed to look identical as they are cut between. Even “taped” stuff from the same show, network, production used to have the same consistent look. You used to be able to walk into even a local newsroom and pick up any ENG camera and shoot with it and then pick up any other random ENG camera out of there and shoot something else, and presuming the person knows how to expose and white balance(which is NOT a given today), the cameras were going to look the same/have the same look. And the same with studio cameras. As the director cuts around, one camera should not look more green than the last and the next shot should not have lifted blacks/lower contrast, etc. I mean, what if you’re watching a scene in a movie and it’s two characters standing outside in an open field in the sun and they have a side two-shot and then an over the shoulder of each and as they cut from the two to the OTS of one of the actors and for no motivated reason it has a magenta tint. It’s jarring and totally takes you out of the moment.


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    #32
    Senior Member ahalpert's Avatar
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    Let's just say I dont think you should have a mismatch without a reason. But you shouldn't compulsively match if you have a reason not to.

    I'm thinking more like gopro footage cutting into real camera footage. Not so much "oops we forgot to match scene files"


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    #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Run&Gun View Post
    And that attitude right there is part of the reason the industry is going down the sh!ter.

    I’m not talking about different scenes in a movie trying to convey different moods. I’m talking about multi-camera productions where the cameras are supposed to look identical as they are cut between. Even “taped” stuff from the same show, network, production used to have the same consistent look. You used to be able to walk into even a local newsroom and pick up any ENG camera and shoot with it and then pick up any other random ENG camera out of there and shoot something else, and presuming the person knows how to expose and white balance(which is NOT a given today), the cameras were going to look the same/have the same look. And the same with studio cameras. As the director cuts around, one camera should not look more green than the last and the next shot should not have lifted blacks/lower contrast, etc. I mean, what if you’re watching a scene in a movie and it’s two characters standing outside in an open field in the sun and they have a side two-shot and then an over the shoulder of each and as they cut from the two to the OTS of one of the actors and for no motivated reason it has a magenta tint. It’s jarring and totally takes you out of the moment.
    I shoot multi cams of theatre shows with three Nikon Z6's and a Sony FS5. My biggest headache by far in the entire process is matching my FS5 to the Nikons. I confess that I struggle. Sometimes it takes me longer to get an acceptable match than it does to edit the entire show. Drives me nuts but to me it is vital to get as good a match as possible so I completely agree with you.


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    Quote Originally Posted by patrickbaldwin View Post
    I shoot multi cams of theatre shows with three Nikon Z6's and a Sony FS5. My biggest headache by far in the entire process is matching my FS5 to the Nikons. I confess that I struggle. Sometimes it takes me longer to get an acceptable match than it does to edit the entire show. Drives me nuts but to me it is vital to get as good a match as possible so I completely agree with you.
    Have you tried cinematch? Do they have your cameras?

    One thing about matching cameras... what about matching lenses? How many of us are using color-matched lenses on multi-cam stuff? (...or different shots from a single-cam shoot...)


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    Quote Originally Posted by patrickbaldwin View Post
    IMy biggest headache by far in the entire process is matching my FS5 to the Nikons.
    The best time to match cameras is before you press the record button. Actually, before you ever leave home. If you've got scopes and charts it is easier, but even just with a monitor that has an A/B switch it shouldn't take too long to get a close look that can then be touched up in post after the shoot. Save the settings on SD cards -- and then you never have to do it again.


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    #36
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    Now would you match them? As you say it's all a matter of aesthetics which is subjective. When matching cameras for a major baseball, football, or sporting event cameras have to look pretty close. Can you imagine the example variations above being used in a sitcom Would be interesting. A quick rough and ready match!

    Chris Young

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    #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahalpert View Post
    Have you tried cinematch? Do they have your cameras?

    One thing about matching cameras... what about matching lenses? How many of us are using color-matched lenses on multi-cam stuff? (...or different shots from a single-cam shoot...)
    I use two 24-70 Nikon zooms and usually two Sigma Art primes and often a 14-24 Nikon zoom. They all look extremely similar to me. Any difference is certainly smothered by the difference in the respective cameras. I have a Nikon 85 1.4 D prime and that is completely different to any other lens I have. That cannot be used side by side with other lenses during a multicam.


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    #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
    The best time to match cameras is before you press the record button. Actually, before you ever leave home. If you've got scopes and charts it is easier, but even just with a monitor that has an A/B switch it shouldn't take too long to get a close look that can then be touched up in post after the shoot. Save the settings on SD cards -- and then you never have to do it again.

    I am not sure I have the knowledge for this yet! I have a large enough X-Rite chart. The only scopes I have are the waveforms etc on my Blackmagic video assist and Ninja V which I guess would be ok. I just right now don't understand how to paint my cameras. When I look at all the Sony parameters that can be changed I have little idea of what I am looking at if I'm honest.
    I am grateful that I have a lot of work right now but I am so busy editing I daren't stop for a day or so to try and test. I suspect I would need a week given my inexperience.
    Nobody has called me out on a mismatch yet but I would love to have something consistent to work with.
    I can achieve a close enough match eventually but given that I am in constantly changing theatre lighting I find that what works with one show doesn't seem to work in another!
    It's quite a source of anxiety for me as I am sure is plain.


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    #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrickbaldwin View Post
    I am not sure I have the knowledge for this yet! I have a large enough X-Rite chart. The only scopes I have are the waveforms etc on my Blackmagic video assist and Ninja V which I guess would be ok. I just right now don't understand how to paint my cameras. When I look at all the Sony parameters that can be changed I have little idea of what I am looking at if I'm honest.
    I am grateful that I have a lot of work right now but I am so busy editing I daren't stop for a day or so to try and test. I suspect I would need a week given my inexperience.
    Nobody has called me out on a mismatch yet but I would love to have something consistent to work with.
    I can achieve a close enough match eventually but given that I am in constantly changing theatre lighting I find that what works with one show doesn't seem to work in another!
    It's quite a source of anxiety for me as I am sure is plain.
    I think you would need to match the hue and saturation on a vectorscope as well as matching the exposure output on a waveform.

    But - unless I'm mistaken - the exposure and color output could shift differently for different cameras at different exposure levels and at different ISOs, so if you match them at one setting they may not match under other circumstances. Which is where Cinematch comes in, I believe. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

    I haven't tried Cinematch yet because I don't have a large need for it and it's not available for FCPX, but some on this forum are quite taken with how much easier it is to match cameras using it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ahalpert View Post
    I think you would need to match the hue and saturation on a vectorscope as well as matching the exposure output on a waveform.

    But - unless I'm mistaken - the exposure and color output could shift differently for different cameras at different exposure levels and at different ISOs, so if you match them at one setting they may not match under other circumstances. Which is where Cinematch comes in, I believe. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

    I haven't tried Cinematch yet because I don't have a large need for it and it's not available for FCPX, but some on this forum are quite taken with how much easier it is to match cameras using it.
    I am on FCPX as well.


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