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    #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by filmguy123 View Post
    I agree with NorBro. If not for anything else, simplified supply chains and associated costs.

    Every year we see a decrease in the barriers to FF sensors. The CPU processing and heat required to run them, required body sizes to accommodate such, etc. When there becomes virtually no downside to a larger sensor, and only upsides, and cost begins to stabilize, who would ever choose S35? S35 is sort of an awkward spot. It doesn't get you into smaller lenses like m43 does. It simply makes more sense to create FF sensors with an S35 crop mode to accommodate those who wish to work and think in such a way, or leverage certain specific lenses.

    I am wondering if M43 has a longer term place in the market. It does seem to be an interesting spot between mobile and high end FF. I am not afraid to sell off all my M43 gear and abandon ship, that's not why I haven't. I actually REALLY hope it sticks around, especially after my last trip to Indonesia. I tell you, traveling small and light with a kit of M43 glass and a couple bodies all as carry on, and working in the field with such a lightweight lens system, and being able to achieve stabilized extreme telephoto in such a breezy handheld package... you just can't do that on the FF mirrorless bodies, not in the same way. M43 lens are just so much more compact.

    If m43 disappears soon, it won't be for lack of utility, it will be for lack of profit due to a smaller niche market. Ironically, S35 is probably a bigger market... but I just think it lacks an utility vs FF/M43.
    My dream is for MFT-sized sensors to make it into the point-and-shoots and camcorders if companies insist on continuing to make them.

    This maybe could help in the battle with phones.


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    #62
    Senior Member ahalpert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorBro View Post
    Open up that noggin...again. lol

    That's what the same kind of thinking thought about 16mm and 35mm film.

    And HD and 4K TVs.

    And 4:3 and 16:9.

    ___

    Filming in S35 crop modes will coexist, but S35 sensors won't (or barely).
    People still shoot 16mm film. You see an occasional 4:3 movie. A 4k TV can play hd with no penalty, so that's a different story. Nothing but upsides to manufacturers for phasing out hdtvs.

    A FF camera cannot crop to S35 with no penalty (AA filter optimization for one, noise minimization)

    Meanwhile, there are still advantages to S35 including more DOF and smaller lenses. The same advantages that M43 has over S35, except that S35 is much more entrenched.

    When arri comes out with a 4K S35 sensor, droves will choose that over the LF

    Ask DPs what they actually care about


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    #63
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    It is what is, I can't help you understand.


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    MFT has a huge edge in reach for the action/BiF shooters. All Olympus and Panasonic would have needed was a sensor - even if Quad Bayer ... sorry, Quad Buyer - in the 40 MPX range. Sony had that sensor a year ago. But there is no camera with that sensor because it'd first cannibalize the APS-C sector, which is dominated by Sony (Sony-Fuji-Nikon) and force the next tier - which is FF - to come down in price or up its own resolution for both stills and video. That's where the cartel decided on a gradual approach with MFT - no 8K soup for you! FF gets its 8K first and it's all there's to it. And prices are holding up near the $2,000 for the entry level FF with 4K. And APS-C still maxes out at 24-26 MPX.

    In any case, Sony obviously wants to to move the market toward the Medium Format. The entry level with 50 MPX Sony sensors, (Pentax 645Z, GFX 50) is $5,000 and Hassy 907 is $6,300. Within a couple of years, they'll have the 102 MPX sensor of GFX 100 and the higher end will have the 150 MPX sensor of Phase One IQ4.

    And a top notch auto focus while Panasonic will have Deffin'D.

    PS. And a medium format 8K cinema camera will even be better.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DLD View Post
    MFT has a huge edge in reach for the action/BiF shooters. All Olympus and Panasonic would have needed was a sensor - even if Quad Bayer ... sorry, Quad Buyer - in the 40 MPX range. Sony had that sensor a year ago. But there is no camera with that sensor because it'd first cannibalize the APS-C sector, which is dominated by Sony (Sony-Fuji-Nikon) and force the next tier - which is FF - to come down in price or up its own resolution for both stills and video. That's where the cartel decided on a gradual approach with MFT - no 8K soup for you! FF gets its 8K first and it's all there's to it. And prices are holding up near the $2,000 for the entry level FF with 4K. And APS-C still maxes out at 24-26 MPX.

    In any case, Sony obviously wants to to move the market toward the Medium Format. The entry level with 50 MPX Sony sensors, (Pentax 645Z, GFX 50) is $5,000 and Hassy 907 is $6,300. Within a couple of years, they'll have the 102 MPX sensor of GFX 100 and the higher end will have the 150 MPX sensor of Phase One IQ4.

    And a top notch auto focus while Panasonic will have Deffin'D.

    PS. And a medium format 8K cinema camera will even be better.
    And then people will be saying that FF cinema cameras will be wiped out entirely by medium format...while the media landscape is still shot mostly in S35


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    Full-frame cameras have many years of specs ahead of them. Just barely getting going with only a few having 4K/60p.

    They'll work on these for the next 5 years and then revisit where the world is around 2025.

    Eventually I predict everyone (or who's left) to have exactly what RED and Kinefinity have been doing: bigger sensors with multiple resolutions and framerates and modes all across the board while other cameras that don't compete with these will focus on the computational side.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ahalpert View Post
    And then people will be saying that FF cinema cameras will be wiped out entirely by medium format...while the media landscape is still shot mostly in S35
    It always starts at the high end and then trickles down. Sensors for cinema vs. stills will have different resolutions, read outs, frame rate, etc. Full frame in cinema probably has a decade or so to run.

    When I first began to post here, the big deals here were GH-4, BMD Cinema Camera, Fs-700 with the not yet ProRes enabled Odyssey, 1D C and a bunch of 1080P moire infused DSLR's. And very few talked about shooting weddings on iPhones.


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    Quote Originally Posted by NorBro View Post
    Full-frame cameras have many years of specs ahead of them. Just barely getting going with only a few having 4K/60p.

    They'll work on these for the next 5 years and then revisit where the world is around 2025.

    Eventually I predict everyone (or who's left) to have exactly what RED and Kinefinity have been doing: bigger sensors with multiple resolutions and framerates and modes all across the board while other cameras that don't compete with these will focus on the computational side.
    That's all well and good for the low-end, which is most. anyone who has used the crop modes in RED is well-aware of the hit to quality.

    Personally, I'd be quite happy with a full-frame (or medium format) camera with crop modes. But I suspect that there will be enough high end demand for S35 to keep them going. And if there is any savings to be had for manufacturers to make S35 instead of FF, they will definitely keep going.

    Aps-c and m43 for stills are a different story because they were virtually always about cost and size savings. Eliminate those and you eliminate the formats (although the lenses will always be smaller)

    The other thing about stills is that AF is the norm and theres often less of a reason for deep focus than in a movie scene

    And stills has decades of FF lenses around. Cinema has decades of S35 lenses

    2/3" cameras wont be wiped out either
    Last edited by ahalpert; 10-23-2020 at 03:03 PM.


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    It will be interesting to see what happens with the already pushed-back ARRI's S35 camera and where it fits with the LFs and 65s being the standard.

    If it's canceled by any chance then we'll have our answer.

    As far as 2/3...no, they won't because they have a purpose. S35 has less of a purpose, and eventually none. That's the point.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ahalpert View Post
    The other thing about stills is that AF is the norm and theres often less of a reason for deep focus than in a movie scene
    Have you seen the Netflix series "Altered Carbon?"

    It's filmed with the Arri 65 I believe, fantastic color and HDR, yet really irritating the overuse of shallow DOF. I'm getting a headache thinking about it.


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