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    #31
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    Interesting.... I have not seen those videos yet. However, I have seen the Kippertie Revolva for Komodo (in person) with Atlas Anamorphic's, which I am pretty sure are larger and heavier than those supreme primes and there was zero movement and I mean zero. From this experience I was actually thinking about picking up a Revolva and Chin-Strap for Komodo once I get a project where I need to rent PL lenses but now I am a little more hesitant and may just look at the Vocas option since I still currently use traditional 4x5.65 ND's. Not to knock Kippertie as I like them as a brand, but another thing to consider is that Revolva is not a future proof accessory as the mount may not be compatible going foward with future camera releases (i.e. dsmc3) or if you decide to go with a different brand of camera, where as traditional ND filters can be used on any camera for years to come even though they tend to be a little more time consuming on a shoot. Just something I always consider when spending over $1000 on camera equipment, which is why I didn't go the Revolva route for my Gemini and may not for Komodo as well. Revolva for Komodo is more affordable than Revolva for dsmc2 and it really would help keep the form factor of Komodo smaller without the need for matte-box and filters on the end of the lens which is great for gimbals so it makes the decision tougher.

    I am wondering though, if Keslow had a bad version of the chin strap or Revolva mount or if something else is going on? If you watch the video it looks like the whole camera (watch the bottom of the Komodo body at the baseplate and the rear battery mount in the first video) as it is moving up and down as well. I see a lot more movement going on in the first video than just the lens and the mount. The second video just shows movement within the frame and it is not necessarily pinned down to movement specifically at the mount. Regardless, I completely understand your concern and I would have greatly preferred a solid locking interchangeable mount for Komodo like a traditional dsmc2 mount but for the price point I guess they couldn't offer everything the bigger cameras have. I still don't see this as a super big deal though. I used to shoot on FS5/FS7 for years with speedboosters and PL adaptors and ran some pretty heavy zoom lenses with focus motors on certain jobs and at times there was a little more play than I would have liked but never enough that a focus motor would move the lens in a manner that affected my shots. I would just use rail-mounted lens support and it was never an issue.

    My question is what lenses are you planning to use on Komodo that would really take it over the edge? For its form factor, I think the whole point (for me at least) is to keep Komodo as small as possible with minimal rigging and smaller lenses. That's what inspired me about Komodo is to have a very capable digital cinema camera that is small, compact, and easily rigged on a gimbal for single-op's. If you want to run a huge cinema zoom or Anamorphic's you are typical renting that gear rather than owning due to cost so it's not like that will be an everyday lens on Komodo and in those instances you can just use lens support or rent a larger RED as well if you don't already own one. I just think the percentage of people throwing super insanely large lenses on Komodo on a daily basis will be far and few and I think thats what the bigger RED camera's are for. If I get hired to shoot a nature DOC where there is budget to rent say a Fujinon Zoom you should probably also budget for Helium or Monstro for 8k res and these larger productions will have no problem getting you the gear you need. However, I have seen lots of Komodo's running the smaller Angenieux's with great success as well as various Anamorphic's all over the web and social media so again I still don't see this as a super big deal until you get into the very large long cine-zooms and at that point is Komodo really the camera for that project?


    Quote Originally Posted by Grug View Post
    Brian Nguyen put out a video on the Kippertie, and even with the chinstrap in place there was still some wiggle. Will it be solid enough for most things? Hopefully, but we'll need to test it with a proper follow focus and FIZ motors to be sure. But it's something people should absolutely keep in mind for motion work.

    It's (unfortunately) just the nature of using lightweight, stills photography lens mounts for motion picture work. Complete rigidity isn't a design requirement for stills lenses (which are only taking a single frame at a time).


    Edit:

    Here's some videos showing the Kippertie with the Chinstrap in place:

    https://i.imgur.com/fN5bGKZ.mp4

    https://i.imgur.com/NWe4wu3.mp4

    I'm going to test it out when I get the chance, but from the looks of it, that's probably more flex than I'm going to be able to tolerate. The guys at Keslow who did these tests, say they tested all of the available options, and apparently the Vocas (unsurprisingly) is the only one that was totally secure, and didn't have backfocus issues when adding filters/matteboxes to the lens.

    That's a bit frustrating as it might rule out "internal" ND options for the camera (for my needs at least). But reliability is always going to trounce convenience as far as I'm concerned.
    Last edited by sleekmedia; 10-15-2020 at 07:29 AM.


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    #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleekmedia View Post
    I am wondering though, if Keslow had a bad version of the chin strap or Revolva mount or if something else is going on?
    Yeah, difficult to say. We don't know how he assembled the setup.

    I feel like with most lightweight setups, if I pushed on the lens like that it would flex. In most scenarios a focus motor on a newer lens is not going to put that much force on the barrel. And if it did, I'd add a lens support.

    The video is showing some play between the lens mount and camera, but he is pushing hard enough to move the entire rig, so ymmv.

    One thing that the Revolva doesn't have is two stabilizing points, so there will likely be some play with extreme force. The RF mount is going to have some play, as we know, but the single mounting point on the bottom is not enough resistance against a hand pushing up on the lens. It should be fine for focus motors and a newer lens. Additional lens support might be needed in extreme situations, but I suppose, the light weight convenience of the Revolva would have to be weighed against a more robust mount and $2000 of matte box and ND filters. Perhaps, if the bottom support screw went in and forced the RF mount to seat more flush in the Komodo mount, that do something, but irdk.

    Perhaps Kippertie will release a new Revolva with an additional support point. seems they could sneak one in at the 10 or 11 o'clock position.

    Don't know that any lens mount with only one screw support will be rigid. Maybe with shims between the lens mount adapter and the camera's lens mount would create a tight enough connection to reduce or defeat lens play under load? Or if a locking RF mount is possible in the future?

    imho imho, ymmv ymmv, tbd tbd, idk idk

    Apparently the native EF mount for the Ursa 12K is wiggly (@1:55):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4TMa1DtWcc


    cannot knock that 6 second start up though. (vs RED's 40+ second startup if you have a small mag, with a larger mag that start up is over a minute!!!!)
    Last edited by James0b57; 10-17-2020 at 11:32 PM.


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    #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grug View Post
    Komodo, with the right batch of accessories (and you need a lot of accessories), seems really appealing to me.

    Having to crop into 5k for 48fps is a little annoying, but other than that, it's mainly just the single video output that really gives me pause (along with flex from the RF mount, and all the various little bugs that have popped up in the beta test program), but at that price. Carrying a pair of them at all times isn't all that unfeasible.
    A lot? To get a started shooting, you need batteries, media, and lenses. That's not that much.

    I'm planning on adding to that one of the low profile handles, but I'm aiming to keep it nice and small, so I don't want to put one of the big handles on it. It will be great for backpacking that way.

    If you want to use it as an A camera you'd need more goodies like follow focus, one of the modules that provides timecode input, and some others, but none of that is unique to the Komodo.

    Then again, a lot of the rigs I've seen are ridiculous; why put 700 accessories on a tiny camera like an Alexa Mini or a Komodo or a Pocket cinema camera? Might as well just get a full-fledged Alexa or Ranger or Ursa Mini instead, and not have to plug the 700 items in every time you build the camera for production.


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    #34
    Senior Member Grug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlin View Post
    A lot? To get a started shooting, you need batteries, media, and lenses. That's not that much.
    To use it as a little hold-in-your-hands cube? Sure. But for any kind of conventional production, you're looking at:

    - Lens mount adapter
    - BP to V-mount adapter plate
    - 15mm LWS baseplate/cage
    - Top handle and monitor/evf mounting hardware
    - Breakout ext. unit or custom cables for timecode/gen lock
    - SDI splitter
    - The Kippertie unit + filters (if you want internal ND functionality)
    - A riser plate for your top handle if you want to use the Kippertie

    And that's just so you can save money (by using batteries, monitors and accessories that you already own).


    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlin View Post
    Then again, a lot of the rigs I've seen are ridiculous; why put 700 accessories on a tiny camera like an Alexa Mini or a Komodo or a Pocket cinema camera? Might as well just get a full-fledged Alexa or Ranger or Ursa Mini instead, and not have to plug the 700 items in every time you build the camera for production.
    The whole situation has got way out of hand. It started with Red's DSMC bodies, and was cemented by some of the maddening design choices Arri made with the Mini (and then with the infuriating cage design they came up with to compensate for those design choices).

    The Red Ranger, Panavision DXL2 and Arri's SXT-W are vast improvements for production-friendly A-cameras (the Venice can be not-too-painfully accessorised to match). But the size and weight of these cameras is still up there - and small/light cameras do make life easier, so we're caught between two worlds at the moment.

    It's actually got me REALLY interested to see how the Mavo Edge comes out - since they seem to have struck a near perfect balance of size and functionality in a clean, unibody design (integrated battery plate, enough integrated accessory power outputs to actually power all of your accessories, sufficient video I/O, internal ND).

    I'm hoping every other manufacturer is going to take notice of how much sense Kinefinity's new layout makes, and that it will become something of a default approach for these small-box cameras moving forwards.


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    #35
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    Why BMD DIDN'T include a locking EF mount on the 12k is beyond me. More serious users will be
    using that camera than the Pockets and the UMP G2 and they would probably rather use PL lenses
    but at least if it had a rock solid locking EF mount, that would satisfy many users.

    Maybe John B will chime in and tell us about his experience with that mount and the slop to date?
    It's a business first and a creative outlet second.
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    #36
    Senior Member Grug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by puredrifting View Post
    Why BMD DIDN'T include a locking EF mount on the 12k is beyond me. More serious users will be
    using that camera than the Pockets and the UMP G2 and they would probably rather use PL lenses
    but at least if it had a rock solid locking EF mount, that would satisfy many users.

    Maybe John B will chime in and tell us about his experience with that mount and the slop to date?
    Because well-known YouTubers keep complaining about not being able to change lenses one-handed with the locking mounts. It's the problem with different market segments. Some of us need lens mounts that WILL NOT MOVE, so we can mount follow focuses, FIZ motors and matteboxes to them. Others need lens mounts that will allow them to hold the camera with one hand and use the other to switch lenses between a pouch on their belt or a backpack they're wearing.

    It's tough to address both of those markets with a single camera (without having multiple detachable lens mount options). And unfortunately, even manufacturers who do get this (like Canon with their C500ii/C300iii design), still make it painful by giving the camera a default mount that you pay for, then have to just put in the cupboard while you spend more money on the mount you actually need... :/


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    #37
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    Blackmagic used to make separate camera models with multiple mounts back in the day.

    The PL will exist for the 1% (which is why the G2 supposedly ships only with an EF as PL didn't sell much for that interested party), and the new age/generation's professional mount is a regular EF because most of those people don't use any accessories in which the regular mount becomes a problem, or use them in a way in which any flex/movement is a concern (for them).


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    #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by puredrifting View Post
    Why BMD DIDN'T include a locking EF mount on the 12k is beyond me. More serious users will be
    using that camera than the Pockets and the UMP G2 and they would probably rather use PL lenses
    but at least if it had a rock solid locking EF mount, that would satisfy many users.

    Maybe John B will chime in and tell us about his experience with that mount and the slop to date?
    Ive never used EF mount on G2s or 12ks so honestly can’t comment.

    Personally, I never ever use EF Mount. It’s a stupid mount for cinema lenses. Full stop. Even if you have a locking mount. It doesn’t solve the other intrinsic shortcomings of stills lenses for motion use.

    Pretty sure you can’t actually order an EF Mount 12k camera. You HAVE to get the PL Mount and then buy a seperate EF Mount.

    The bigger question is, why didn’t BMD offer an LPL mount option.

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    #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grug View Post
    To use it as a little hold-in-your-hands cube? Sure. But for any kind of conventional production, you're looking at:

    - Lens mount adapter
    - BP to V-mount adapter plate
    - 15mm LWS baseplate/cage
    - Top handle and monitor/evf mounting hardware
    - Breakout ext. unit or custom cables for timecode/gen lock
    - SDI splitter
    - The Kippertie unit + filters (if you want internal ND functionality)
    - A riser plate for your top handle if you want to use the Kippertie

    And that's just so you can save money (by using batteries, monitors and accessories that you already own).
    In which case you might as well just get a more production oriented camera in the first place, because if you're going to rig it up that much, it's no longer all that compact. A few cinematographers who like to shoot Arris favor the full sized models for that reason -- they don't need to do as much rigging, and by the time you rig a Mini to the same level, you're no longer saving much as far as size goes.

    I suppose if you're getting a Komodo for use as an affordable Red A-camera, then it makes more sense to rig it more than I'm planning to, due to its price tag.

    The whole situation has got way out of hand. It started with Red's DSMC bodies, and was cemented by some of the maddening design choices Arri made with the Mini (and then with the infuriating cage design they came up with to compensate for those design choices).
    Yeah, as much as I like my Red, I'm still not sold on the modular thing.

    The Red Ranger, Panavision DXL2 and Arri's SXT-W are vast improvements for production-friendly A-cameras (the Venice can be not-too-painfully accessorised to match). But the size and weight of these cameras is still up there - and small/light cameras do make life easier, so we're caught between two worlds at the moment.
    And this is why I'm not sold on the modular thing: I agree. The Ranger requires much less build out for production, and the additional physical buttons also make it easier to use, and more efficient. That said, the Ranger isn't actually that much heavier than even a moderate DSMC2 rig. Add an I/O module and a wireless transmitter to a DSMC2 body, and you're already pretty close to the weight of a Ranger.

    It's actually got me REALLY interested to see how the Mavo Edge comes out - since they seem to have struck a near perfect balance of size and functionality in a clean, unibody design (integrated battery plate, enough integrated accessory power outputs to actually power all of your accessories, sufficient video I/O, internal ND).
    Same here -- I put in the under $200 deposit for one, but I haven't gotten any updates on it yet. It's just amazing that it has a 45 megapixel 135 sensor and can record open gate at 48fps, yet only has about the same power draw as a Komodo? It doesn't have a built in screen like a Komodo does, but still... it's quite an achievement. I want to play with one.

    And that's in spite of having a pretty solid set of I/O built in on top have having integrated variable ND, to boot.

    I'm hoping every other manufacturer is going to take notice of how much sense Kinefinity's new layout makes, and that it will become something of a default approach for these small-box cameras moving forwards.
    Agreed... it resembles a miniaturized Venice, with that new menu system that Kinefinity built. Kinefinity has been listening to its users. I'm also quite fond of the Kinemount. I'm not sure why Sony and Kinefinity are the only companies that have adopted that elegant mount system.


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    #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Brawley View Post
    Pretty sure you canít actually order an EF Mount 12k camera. You HAVE to get the PL Mount and then buy a separate EF Mount.

    The bigger question is, why didnít BMD offer an LPL mount option.
    Yes, the Blackmagic URSA Mini 12K ships with a PL mount and the URSA Mini G2 ships with an EF mount. Both cameras have user-interchangeable mounts though, so you can swap it with a different mount if needed. Blackmagic also makes a Nikon F-mount and B4 mount options (for broadcast lenses) and the different mounts aren't crazy expensive either (B4 mount is the most expensive at $385 due to the internal optics needed):
    https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/pro...pecs/W-URSA-23

    Given that the flange distance for LPL is 44mm (same as for EF mount), I think it would probably be possible to create an LPL mount as well. Not sure if this option would be popular enough for Blackmagic to create their own, but it's possible a 3rd party could develop one. Wooden Camera makes an LPL mount for the Sony Venice and RED DSMC2 cameras, for example.

    c7adapters also makes some 3rd party lens mounts for various cameras (RED, Arri, Sony, etc.), including a locking EF mount for the Sony Venice. The nice thing about EF to RF mount adapters is that they require no internal electronics (it's essentially just a pass through of the EF pins through to the RF mount), which makes it easier for 3rd parties to create them.
    Last edited by davedv; 10-25-2020 at 03:15 AM.


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