Komodo is Officially On Sale

[James0b57]

How Komodo compares to Gemini I will try and sum up as best as I can with my personal experience...

Thank you for you extended thoughts about it all, that was a really nice read! Much appreciated!

[James0b57]

ha, did you see my comment about the Apple video?

No, haha, what was it?

Also, ever since watching the brass Komodo video, I can't get this song out of my head:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBbQyXZvkbA


(except it goes "brass Komodo, that funky Komodo.... and every where we go we bring the Komodo with us")

[NorBro]

#247 from below...after their M1 presentation video:

The end of that video had a COVID precautions credits (everything they did to be safe)...never seen that before.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread...e-CPU-!/page25

[James0b57]

I saw that a few days ago, and I actually have to admit, it's pretty damn cool.

I kind of think that if you remove the "movie star" aspect from him or you had no clue who he was, you could have a beer with him and be a camera nerd.

Maybe he should have been Cameraman instead of Aquaman...

He seems like one of the most genuine stars out there.

He is also the perfect ambassador for making the Komodo look extra small. Actually looks as small as the Komodo feels in real life. Most pictures online make the Komodo look bigger.

[James0b57]

#247 from below...after their M1 presentation video:



http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread...e-CPU-!/page25

Oh yeah, haha! That was funny, but totally needs to be attach to any sort of promo or ad campaign these days. =)

[James0b57]

....just a couple thoughts or observations. And sorry for breaking up your quotes, I know it makes it difficult to keep track of things in the reply. I'll try to keep my answers short next time.

In terms of resolution, I find not much difference between 6k and 5k. However, Komodo appears a little sharper,

Dynamic range of Komodo is definitely less than Gemini (1-2 stops)....Despite Komodo's DR being slightly less, the way in which the Komodo sensor treats highlights is somewhat different. With Komodo, highlights tend to roll-off to clip in a manner that is surprisingly very pleasing and smooth (potentially the smoothest of any RED camera to date I have used)...

I find this very interesting. I've heard you and someone else say the highlight roll off is the smoothest of any Red yet, but I wonder if that is just compared to the default Red look, and not the "very soft highlight rolloff" setting in DSMC2? Because with a stop less DR, the Komodo would have a hard time making a smoother roll-off than the Gemini, unless the Gemini settings were set more contrasty.

Also, a 6K camera should theoretically downsample to 4K at a 1.5x's downsample, meaning there might actually be near pixel perfect luma detail. The 5K Gemini would down sample with plenty of resolution, but at the pixel level might have slight dithering as the pixels may not line up perfectly going to 4K. So, you'll still get a 4K image, but it will have less bite than a 6K downsample. In my uses, I prefer the Gemini relaxed sharp and more DR over the edgier 6K cameras with slightly less head room in the highlights or underexposure.

However, if the Komodo is looking sharper at normal viewing distances, that is often because of contrast. Or at least that is my first guess when someone says a camera is "sharp" and especially when they say "too sharp". Yet, you are saying it has the smoothest highlight roll off of any Red, and others have called it "creamy". So, I guess it isn't the contrast.

Idk, makes me very curious. A lot of things from different sources making me scratch my poor slow brain.

In terms of Color rendering, I would give both cameras a great score. A comparison of tint would be that with both cameras set neutral, Gemini leans +1 towards green with Komodo leaning -1 towards Magenta.

When pulling the shadows up, the Gemini has more magenta in the blacks, and the Komodo has more greens, so I find it interesting that you are finding under normal exposure values for skin tones, the Komodo is more magenta, and the Gemini is more green. I totally believe you, it is just the opposite of what I would have expected.

the latest firmware (v7.4.1) where RED has updated the sensor metadata for Kelvin and Tint values that represent the white balance of the scene which now uses the Daylight locus rather than the Plankian locus, which is supposed to reduce the famous RED "green tint".

I've got to see if I have the latest firmware. I updated it two or three months ago. That sounds like a nice update!

In terms of low-light performance Komodo has really surprised me despite having no dual-iso and a smaller pixel pitch compared to Gemini. Komodo produces very clean blacks and mid-tones and you can even lift them up quite a bit before the image breaks-up. I am confident using Komodo up to 3200 ISO

If a raw camera's native iso is iso800, the iso 3200 is like -2stops under exposed (or push +2, you know). Most cameras can do that these days, and with 6K, the noise cleans up nicely in post. But rating a camera 2 stops faster means you really have no room for under exposure, since you are already technically under exposing 2 stops.

Gemini is actually a noisy camera, not Xmas lights noise, but there is a little dance in the shadows. I'd rate it very much an iso 400-800 camera. With skin tone HLP Olpf, I'd say it is a solid iso400 camera. At least the noise is more visible. I have never been bothered by the noise. I believe this is in part because of the larger pixels. I think 6K cameras have a finer grain pattern, so they look cleaner at base iso. However, moving up the iso range, the Gemini does perform a bit better. The dual iso is nice, and I like having it as a creative option. Recently used iso800LL for some super slomo at 2.5K, where the subject was wearing black, and it helped a lot. Shooting night shots outside, the Komodo seemed to show it's weakness in low light is the night sky, whereas the Gemini in LL mode did pretty good. Not A7s3 territory, but I felt the Gemini is usable at night, whereas the other Reds require those street lamps or car headlights to get anything nice. So, despite the Gemini not being a low light beast, it is one of the few higher end cinema cameras that can manage. The Monster shadow detail is phenomenal. The Monster never does well in online comparisons, but up close in person, it is addicting to see. But yeah, overall, even though the Komodo is really close to the Gemini LL mode in low light scenes, it is still that 1/2 stop or so below shooting night exteriors as easily as the Gemini, and at night every little bit helps. Any camera can look good at higher iso's with enough light, but capturing the ambient light at night can be more tricky. (I'm talking city nights)

You said it too, I was just riffing, and forgot what I was talking about:

...and Dual-ISO really did allow me to capture scenes that would have ended up breaking up, which would have required lots of noise reduction in post with other cameras.

but with any RED camera you need to focus on getting the correct amount of light into the sensor during exposure on the forefront and watch the "stop-lights" and "goal-post" as you area already familiar.

I sort of agree. I like that it is showing the exposure for the raw, and not some out, but histograms can be tricky in trying to pinpoint levels in an exposure. Also, those stop lights only light up when the clipping is taking up a big enough patch. So, if you want to hold detail in a candle flame, those stop lights might not light up, giving false sense of security that everything is exposed, then in post the find the candle flames are white and clipped. easy fix, but still. And once I wanted to expose to hold the orb of the sun at sunset, but I got it into post and it was partially clipped. So, the Red exposure tools are helpful, but can also be annoyingly vague, and have margin of error. Seems like with video that isn't necessary, they should be insanely accurate.

In terms of sensor size, Komodo is a little on the tiny side and smaller than I would have liked

Agreed, though i find it annoying having to go to 4K or 4.5K to use a S35 zoom on the Gemini sometimes. Is nice to have the anamorphic height option for cinema cameras. However, the Komodo being an Action cam by design would imply the trend toward deeper depth of field to capture everything that is happening. I am just thinking out loud there.

Komodo is extremely unique in the fact that you can rig it up as an A-camera or strip it down to Mamiya form factor and take it with you anywhere inconspicuously.

Yeah, despite it's design intention, it is still one of the better motion capture cameras available at any price point.

Since I have owned Komodo it has greatly improved my companies production capabilities in that I am not constantly re-rigging my Gemini (A-camera) in multiple fashions.

This is my hope some day. I might start using my Gemini for gigs if I can run around with that kind of setup.

If you already own a RED camera there is no greater B/C camera.

Unfortunately, Dragon and MX cameras just came down to that sub $10K range in the used market, and they are looking tempting too. But as you said earlier, the Komodo looks to match better with the Gemini. plus the Komodo brings longer battery life, global shutter, and lighter / smaller setups, auto focus, and mirrorless lens adpapters, among a few other things, so it seems like it would be a much better companion to a Gemini or Monstro.

If you are a filmmaker who has a stable balance of income and a good existing business model, has crew and relationships with industry professionals that have similar vision, and intent to make ads or features that are a "cut-above" in terms of IQ in order to attract more prominent clients then the Komodo really does open up some doors and wouldn't be a bad investment as an A-camera since the price to entry is the lowest it has ever been for 16-bit internal RAW.

That's the key right there. Any professional camera, sound, lighting, and power computer package is going to be a significant investment of time and money. I rigged my friend's A7sII up to my accessories and gear, and he was being all precious about his camera, but all of my add-ons and tripod were many times more expensive, so starting business is always more than the camera body purchase. A camera is like a college degree, it won't get you the jobs, but it won't prevent you from getting the jobs. And also, it doesn't matter what kind you have, it is better to have one than none.

If I were going to rate RED cameras on a scale of IQ outside of resolution (DR, Highlight roll-off, Low-Light Capability, Frame-Rates, Crop during HFR, Color Accuracy, Noise during under-exposure, etc.) I would place them as follows from my personal experience.

Monstro > Gemini > Dragon > Komodo > Helium > Scarlet-W

If I would rate RED cameras strictly on scale of IQ VS. Price-Point I would place them in order as follows.

Komodo > Gemini > Dragon > Scarlet-W > Helium > Monstro

I'd agree with that list. =). Although, difficult to rate cameras like these by "bang-for-buck", as that defeats the purpose! haha, it is all about getting the best no matter the cost, otherwise we'd all be using Black magic and Caniknony hybrids.

DLD mentioned that Red was attempting to swim down stream with the Komodo, but that is because everyone is seeing the Komodo as a cheap A cam, when it is really an expensive action cam that just happens to have better image quality that pretty much all the sub $10K video cameras out there.

[James0b57]

@Sleek,


I'm with you on the Red's looking better, but where I find Red faltering is in the details. At the High end, they are up against the Venice and the Arri's, and for the most part, I cannot fault those two cameras much in anyway. So when the big budget teams are looking for a camera, they go for those. In the low budget, a lot of people used to scrape all their change together to get that Red image quality, because a DSLR was shooting 8bit H.264 at a lovely 17Mbps.

However, now in the Sub $7.5K market the quality gap has become less obvious. It's almost more about LUT's than cameras these days.


Here we are seeing, that the Fx6 and C300III (and therefor perhaps the Canon C70) are keeping up with the Komodo in DR, and not far behind in colour.
-4 stops (under exposed)
Screen Shot 2020-11-28 at 3.13.08 AM.jpg
+4 stops (over exposed)
Screen Shot 2020-11-28 at 3.13.55 AM.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z-xB5dnIfk

From this test, it could be argued that the Fx6 and C70 have more dynamic range than the Komodo.... and that means they are up there with the Dragon and Helium as well.

Of course, the web streaming hides a lot of the nuance in cameras, so it may be that there is more going on there, and to me it shows that the Komodo is at least doing really well where it matters most to cinema shooters. ...But it isn't the giant gap in image quality that gave Red its reputation back in the day.

So, Red has to tighten up their over all quality to stay relevant in the High end, especially with Sony now being a serious contender. And Red has no lower end to go to, because as of 2020, the low end is starting to look very good and very competitive. Is that nebulas owner op, music video world big enough? It might be. They better hurry up before Chinese cameras catch up.

[ahalpert]

That actually looks like a very impressive showing for the FX6 amongst those other cameras

[James0b57]

That actually looks like a very impressive showing for the FX6 amongst those other cameras

Yeah, agreed.

I'm not complaining though, that just means all video cameras are really pretty good these days. It doesn’t mean Red got worse, as Red has been improving as well. just that everyone else made their way there finally. They still have a ways to go, but at least we are in the good enough stage of things. But it does make me wonder what Red has cooking for DSMC3, now that all the low hanging fruit is snatched up. They did pretty well with improving CMOS smear on and improving shadow performance on the Komodo, but they still lag behind the 10+ year old AlevIII in a few important areas of image quality. Ah well, we'll find out soon enough. Maybe the new Arri sensor will be a joke, and every ends up hating it. Right? Red has improved a long the way, but I don't know if we'll ever see a DSMC4, except in the way we might see Hummers and hassleblads.



However, I know those images from the CVP video weren't very clear, but if you look up close, at the +5 stops over exposure, the Komodo still has some detail, but it is just desaturated. This is common for digital cameras to get more desaturated towards the extreme highlights, since they are not realy meant to be brought back, but to look like nice highlights. The FX6 is holding onto colour longer, but actually fully clips before the Komodo. That is why I am not a big fan of the "recovery" tests. Cameras aren't meant to be under or over exposed like that just to be brought back. But it does at least show us the DR.

23F722D2-C5A1-4C0A-80CF-A41EE6B84F56.jpg
CVP says that the Komodo is "breaking up" in the +4 over exposure, but it is actually retaining detail on into the +5 where the Fx6 gives up. The Komodo is more noisy in the under exposure tests, but it is not applying Noise Reduction, and the colors are remaining fairly good even under exposed, so that is promising. Overall impressive results from all the cameras, but I think in this particular test it is a toss up between the C300iii and the Komodo with the Fx6 not far behind at all.

[sleekmedia]

I am already a sucker for vintage Leica glass so seeing those 1920's lenses got me really worked up and now I am doing research trying to find more info and some for sale lol. Now we know Aquaman is secretly on one of these forums floating around.

This should get a few people excited and add a few hundred sales.

Even I took a quick look to see if it was in stock. LOL [facepalm emoji]

It's funny because if he wasn't rich or famous, you could totally expect this dude to be on a lens forum (with his vintage lenses).

[Maybe he is!]