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    #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahalpert View Post
    I also think you're on very shaky ground if you say, "I don't think all ____s fit this stereotype, I just think THIS one does."
    I'm not sure what you're driving at, I made no such assertion.

    It's ambiguous whether the crass term was intended as a racial slur or insult, as in common use the term is not specific to ethnicity, but synonymous with prostitute, which is politely referred to as the worlds oldest profession. Words having more than one use or meaning muddies the waters in situations like this. It's fine to condemn people for wrongdoing, I just think we should make sure they're guilty first, and condemn them for the things that they're actually guilty of.

    The photographer is at least guilty of making an insult, and potentially guilty of making a racial slur, and I think we would do well to refrain from making a rush to judgement.


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    #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imamacuser View Post
    I'm not sure what you're driving at, I made no such assertion.
    I didnt mean that you were asserting that. But when you said that the photographer was characterizing Harris' morality and not slurring her ethnically or sexually, my point was that his characterization of her aligned with the Jezebel stereotype. One can't definitively determine if he harbors conscious/unconscious bias or not. But he spread the stereotype either way.

    "The portrayal of black women as lascivious by nature is an enduring stereotype. The descriptive words associated with this stereotype are singular in their focus: seductive, alluring, worldly, beguiling, tempting, and lewd. Historically, white women, as a category, were portrayed as models of self-respect, self-control, and modesty - even sexual purity, but black women were often portrayed as innately promiscuous, even predatory. This depiction of black women is signified by the name Jezebel."

    https://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/jezebel/

    Perhaps it would have been fairer and more meaningful to give him a chance to redeem himself and turn it into a teaching moment instead of a policing moment. But the lesson for all of us should be to take care with what we post lest we be misinterpreted. Being polite and refraining from libel is probably a wise course of action.


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    #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahalpert View Post
    You could say that the cartoonist was making a comment about Netanyahu's character and didn't mean to perpetuate harmful stereotypes. But does it matter? Involuntary Manslaughter is a lesser charge than murder but it's still a crime.
    Being an a**hole is not a crime. Freedom of speech and expression means exactly that -- you are free to express yourself, and the government cannot arrest, imprison, or prosecute you for that. And that inherently means that someone, somewhere, will find something that was said, to be offensive. Too bad. The Catholics found it awfully offensive when Copernicus said that the Earth revolved around the sun. Again -- too damn bad. They got over it. Took 'em 359 years, but eventually they apologized to Galileo.

    If the right to free speech doesn't protect "offensive" speech, then what, exactly, does it protect? "You're free to speak so long as you only say the things that we (the twitter mob, the government, the police, who?) approve of?" What kind of right is that?

    I retain the right to hire, or not hire, anyone I damn well please. And if someone makes a complete ass out of themselves on social media, then I reserve the right to not hire that person because, as an intelligent businessman, I recognize that it is bad for business to have a-holes on your staff. I also reserve the right to not patronize businesses that engage in oppressive policies or political activism that I disagree with.

    Point being -- The guy said something that his employers found outrageous, so they fired him. Actions have consequences. Don't be a dumbass. Honestly, it really is that simple. If you don't like it, and you think the NBA was wrong, then don't watch their games or buy their merchandise. Vote with your feet.


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    #44
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    I completely agree with you, Barry. I wasn't saying that being offensive is a crime. I just meant that whether you cause damage intentionally or unintentionally, the damage is still done. So, you'd better tread lightly.

    Would we be better off if businesses were regulated against firing contractors for this sort of thing? I'm not so sure.

    And ultimately, brands have an image to uphold. I was once paid not to shoot a fashion show I was hired for because the client hadn't realized how long my hair and beard were. So they paid my rate and had the assistant shoot and I never worked for them again. But I think that was the only client I ever had that had a problem with my image. Different clients have different tolerances.


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    #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by lambert View Post
    The immediate nature of An online presence seems to be a factor. If one retweet’s reposts or distributes others messages constantly mistakes will happen. If the photographer had to go home and write a letter to the editor and mail it off I’m sure they would still have a job. I don’t do much with fb, mostly like videos of innocent pics of dogs stealing baby’s ice cream type stuff but I used to be shocked by what I’m constantly sent by folks who should know better. Community standards Vary widely . Sitting at a table with a group of comedians trying to entertain the table has a pretty much nothing off limits No filter standard. The same comedian up on stage five minutes later has a different standard and what they send out on the web with corporate gigs at stake has a third standard. Sadly one lapse of judgement can have severe consequences. Our public, private and secret lives sometimes pop up in the wrong place.
    This brings up something I’ve wanted to see explored, and have said that Vice should do it, as it would fit in with their style. Do non-white, non-male and non-white-non-male comedians have an “advantage”, because of what they can “get away with” talking about? And, even though I don’t think “hoe” is a racial slur, because anyone can be called a “hoe” or variation thereof, what if it had been a black comedian or black female comedian that had posted it?

    We all know the old saying, “Don’t shoot the messenger”. I think today, a lot of times the message can be/is misinterpreted, depending on the messenger.

    There was an incident where I live several weeks ago. Not quite sure if it made the national news, but possibly. It caused several days of “unrest”. I’ve heard “both sides of the story”. The one from the offended party that was played on the news and I’ve also heard the “insiders” story. Obviously, I do not know which story is really true, because I was not there. But if the “inside story” is true, at worst, the person was just being slightly rude(which I chalk-up to society in-general and poor training in retail), because of an unreasonable request. A few polite words, “I’m sorry, we can’t do that because...”., would have probably prevented the entire thing from happening.

    Again, this is all presumptive on my part. I’m only trying to make an illustration of how a misinterpretation of something can lead to something it’s not.


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    #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Run&Gun View Post
    This brings up something I’ve wanted to see explored, and have said that Vice should do it, as it would fit in with their style. Do non-white, non-male and non-white-non-male comedians have an “advantage”, because of what they can “get away with” talking about? And, even though I don’t think “hoe” is a racial slur, because anyone can be called a “hoe” or variation thereof, what if it had been a black comedian or black female comedian that had posted it?
    I dont know man. 2 of the 3 highest earning comedians last year were Jerry Seinfeld and Jim Gaffigan, who both have very apolitical humor with no swearing. #1 was Kevin Hart. But his Oscar's hosting gig was canceled due to some homophobic tweets.

    Are you saying that if the NBA photographer had been black and posted that meme, would he have been let off the hook? He probably wouldn't have been accused of racism but definitely could have been accused of sexism and could potentially still have been fired. A black female photographer? Probably would have gotten a pass.

    But yeah, Kanye West has said things that even offended me ("being slaves was a choice") and he wasn't "cancelled." Does that advantage outweigh the disadvantage of being a minority? Probably not. And anyway I think I've witnessed people of every ethnicity slur their own ethnicity, whether jokingly or not. It seems to be one's right to self-discriminate.


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    #47
    Senior Member Run&Gun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahalpert View Post
    I dont know man. 2 of the 3 highest earning comedians last year were Jerry Seinfeld and Jim Gaffigan, who both have very apolitical humor with no swearing. #1 was Kevin Hart. But his Oscar's hosting gig was canceled due to some homophobic tweets.

    Are you saying that if the NBA photographer had been black and posted that meme, would he have been let off the hook? He probably wouldn't have been accused of racism but definitely could have been accused of sexism and could potentially still have been fired. A black female photographer? Probably would have gotten a pass.

    But yeah, Kanye West has said things that even offended me ("being slaves was a choice") and he wasn't "cancelled." Does that advantage outweigh the disadvantage of being a minority? Probably not. And anyway I think I've witnessed people of every ethnicity slur their own ethnicity, whether jokingly or not. It seems to be one's right to self-discriminate.
    I don't mean most popular or makes the most money, I just mean having more leeway in what can be said and what can be said about about others outside of their race, sex, etc.

    Re: if the photog had been black. No, I meant it literally. What if Wanda Sykes had come up with the meme in question and posted it? I guarantee there would have been a different conversation going on.


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    #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahalpert View Post
    ... But I think that was the only client I ever had that had a problem with my image.
    I don't know. I'm surprised that clients don't find the body growing out of your chest and hugging you to be a bit off-putting. But a second set of hands and eyes looking back can be a big plus.


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    #49
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    From Howard costel, jimmy the Greek, Ashton kuchner Coach paterno tweets, that have put foot in mouth. Sometimes innocently sometimes maybe not. Some recover quickly because it was obvious They didn’t know the situation (kuchner) and others not. Today every minute of every day one has the opportunity to destroy a career or a friendship in an instant. I can’t help but think that many of these third rail tweets, memes, reposts would have gotten a pass a year ago. But now social isolation exacerbates and magnifies online faux pais. I guess now one has to always wear a mask in public and online or face possible dire consequeces.


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    #50
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    Yes the pandemic seeme to have intensified the social media lunacy that already there, just as the explosion of social media intensified the human lunacy that most of us were polite enough to keep inside til about 2012


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