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    Senior Member James0b57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahalpert View Post
    Good points. Even $20k, though, would be a steep reduction in their price point and get new people on board. And hey if they toss out their quality control protocols (ahem BMD) I bet they could get the cost of their sensors way down.

    And I suppose that ARRI has the Alexa M if you need a compact body for crash camming? (Or is that product made obsolete by the mini?)
    Or, another company can produce a 2K DR beast, but they don’t.

    I don’t understand the camera market, and i haven’t seen anyone else on dvx understand it that doesn’t actually work for these companies.

    It can be good to be a little aware of potential reasons why they behave the way they do, but ultimately, i just want to express what i want, as it i don’t need to see what they want. They want money. I want a camera. I have some money, and they don’t listen to me because i am no one. That is how it has been since i started buying cameras. HD era saw some of the worst camera design choices of all time. As the rabib buying has slowed down, companies are starting to make cameras that seem like they can last again. But no one is making a 2K DR colour perfect tool like Arri. They still are chasing the wind, finding new niches, and going after the biggest piece of the pie.

    But sticking a $15K 2Megapixel sensor into a $20K camera sounds wild. I wish you made cameras. Since we’re all goving career advice today, maybe you, Pure, and Combat form a camera company. RnG and I will beta test, and JB will get your cameras onto bigger shoots. Norbro will spread the word on forums.

    Talking about camera companies is probably my least favourite part of dvx. It hasn’t done jacksh-t but help us pass the time.

    I really like the cameras available today. They are either cheap enough, or just really really good. That’s all i ever really cared about, and sure, maybe my dream version of a cinevised mirrorless camera doesn’t exist yet, but the Komodo will have to suffice.


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    ARRI can move their lower end camera production outside of Germany, as many other German manufacturers have done. BMW, VW and Daimler have plants all over the world.

    As to Red, it's an expected move but, historically, the budget companies moving upmarket has been far more successful than the upscale manufacturers moving downward. In other words, Hyundai and Samsung have done so, as well as Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infinity and, if one were to go back, Ford/Lincoln. Top fashion brands like Armani F/X tried the middle ground but did not go the JC Penney, Target, Walmart mass merchandising route.

    My hunch is that Red sales have been eaten up by the LF's on the high end and severely impacted by the C500MKII and FX-9 (and FS-7 prior years) on the low/middle. And, as JB had mentioned, Sony Venice is found on the Sony Studio projects. I thought several years ago that, at some point, Canon and Sony would pretty much swallow everything below ARRI and I still think this to be the case. With their next generation of models.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DLD View Post
    ARRI can move their lower end camera production outside of Germany, as many other German manufacturers have done. BMW, VW and Daimler have plants all over the world.

    As to Red, it's an expected move but, historically, the budget companies moving upmarket has been far more successful than the upscale manufacturers moving downward. In other words, Hyundai and Samsung have done so, as well as Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infinity and, if one were to go back, Ford/Lincoln. Top fashion brands like Armani F/X tried the middle ground but did not go the JC Penney, Target, Walmart mass merchandising route.

    My hunch is that Red sales have been eaten up by the LF's on the high end and severely impacted by the C500MKII and FX-9 (and FS-7 prior years) on the low/middle. And, as JB had mentioned, Sony Venice is found on the Sony Studio projects. I thought several years ago that, at some point, Canon and Sony would pretty much swallow everything below ARRI and I still think this to be the case. With their next generation of models.
    What about if someone else with a lot of $$$ - maybe Apple or Tesla/SpaceX or even Amazon - created a small box that provided an image exactly like the LF - to the T - and sold it for $10K. [And also physically had mostly everything the other hardware has.]

    Would that put ARRI out of business "overnight"?

    Hypothetically, how long before everyone would be using one? And at what point does loyalty and trust vanish?


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    Quote Originally Posted by NorBro View Post
    What about if someone else with a lot of $$$ - maybe Apple or Tesla/SpaceX or even Amazon - created a small box that provided an image exactly like the LF - to the T - and sold it for $10K. [And also physically had mostly everything the other hardware has.]

    Would that put ARRI out of business "overnight"?

    Hypothetically, how long before everyone would be using one? And at what point does loyalty and trust vanish?
    I wrote, when Apple sued Red for the "Raw" patents, that it'd be easier to just subcontract/outsource the manufacturing to someone like Samsung (the two of them have a long working partnerships on sensors and processors) and sell it in their Apple stores at near cost just to make its point known. But it's probably much, much cheaper to just negotiate a small licensing fee that to go the "new camera" route.

    As to sensor costs. eBay has many listed as replacement for Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic cameras of all shapes, sizes and dates of production. Depending on whether it's a "sensor only" part or a full package/matrix with wiring, a full frame 5D MKIII or A7S sensor replacement can run anywhere from $315 to $600. Now, mind you this is a full retail price. The manufacturing costs are likely to be about one third of that.

    PS. I don't think a newcomer can drive ARRI out of business, as camera costs on big productions are negligible.


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    Maybe monopoly-like.

    Essentially no competition and on top for 100 years because no one wants to use anything else.

    Even if something else is just as good (or would be), it's almost impossible to change minds.


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    Quote Originally Posted by DLD View Post
    ... Oh and not so sound like a complete heretic here ... R5 may turn out to be a fine camera and all that but --- it looks like a jack-of-all-trade product that will get squeezed on the photo end by A7RIV and on the video end by A7SIII. And Sony can easily drop a few hundred off A7SIV price to make it even more competitive...
    I meant to say A7RIV (since SIV doesn't currently exist)

    But I was correct about the downward price adjustments. It is $300 cheaper now, at $3,200. If R5 comes out at $4,000, Sony will be ready.


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    Summer rebates are in full effect across-the-board...a lot of "instant savings".


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    Quote Originally Posted by NorBro View Post
    Summer rebates are in full effect across-the-board...a lot of "instant savings".
    It's also Covid related.

    But A7RIV was lauded as the Camera of the Year in 2019, so it's a nice price break.


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    Quote Originally Posted by combatentropy View Post
    Red has a healthy respect in Hollywood, but Arri probably sells 10 times as many cameras.
    Listening to ARRI say there are roughly 70 Alexa 65 in the world, puts the high end market in perspective.
    @andreemarkefors


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    For perspective, according to Wiki Arri made about 500 million in revenue in 2017 with 1500 employees, while according to DNB.com Red has 160 million in revenue (I did not see a year listed) with 500 employees, so Arri is about three times the revenue and employees. Aside from cameras Arri also sells lighting, lenses, and various support gear such as matte boxes and follow focuses. Perhaps cameras account for half or a third of their sales. Red has sold some lenses but never with much popularity so I'd imagine a considerably larger percentage of their sales are cameras compared to Arri, I'd guess around 90%. Red cameras are also cheaper on average than Arris which would further contribute to there being a larger number of Red cameras in existence in relation to the revenues of the two companies.
    Last edited by Eric Coughlin; 06-02-2020 at 02:03 AM.


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