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    F23: Public Enemies was shot with REC709?!
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    Senior Member Mike Krumlauf's Avatar
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    https://theasc.com/ac_magazine/July2...ies/page1.html

    Came across the old ASC article about PE and saw they used the F23 in Rec709.... I really dont understand why in the hell they would do that when they have the option for hypergammas and SLog for better color and contract/DR.
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    Maybe that explains why it looked like video [trailer]. So did some of Michael Mann's other forays into digital, like Miami Vice and Collateral.


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    Senior Member Cary Knoop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Krumlauf View Post
    https://theasc.com/ac_magazine/July2...ies/page1.html

    Came across the old ASC article about PE and saw they used the F23 in Rec709.... I really dont understand why in the hell they would do that when they have the option for hypergammas and SLog for better color and contract/DR.
    Not the first time Mann does that, he is averse to "fixing in post" to the extreme. He is almost 77 and it is fair to say he did not grow up with digital techniques.

    And yes, I think it makes zero sense. If you want to see what you are filming use a LUT to monitor.


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    Senior Member Grug's Avatar
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    That film looked awful.

    I can't hate it too much though, as it was actually a terrific teaching material for me in those early days of the digital transition.

    You've got a film shot by Dante Spinotti, so there SHOULD have been no cause for concern. His lighting and compositions are always superb, right? So what could possibly go wrong?

    Well... the digital stuff.

    And almost all of it went wrong.

    This is purely conjecture on my part, but I have a suspicion that some iDIoT suggested to Dante that shooting digital with a 360 degree shutter would add more motion blur to the image, and that the extra motion blur would help hide some of the "digitalness" of the 2/3" sensor.

    What it actually did, was make the film almost unwatchable. A smeery mess with a motion cadence that felt way off.

    The colour timing too was a bit of a disaster. They just failed miserably to wrangle a pleasing image from it, and the result is this very coarse, utterly bland palette, that doesn't have the old-timey desaturated look it seems they were going for - it just looks wrong.

    So the end result was these lovely images, DESTROYED by mishandling. Both on-set and in-post.

    There's a lot to be learnt from it.


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    Senior Member James0b57's Avatar
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    Didn’t one of the Narnia films use F23?


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    Quote Originally Posted by James0b57 View Post
    Didn’t one of the Narnia films use F23?
    Yes, the third one, the Dawn Treader, and it looked quite good.


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    Whats the problem shooting 709?

    Basically then one was delivering 709 anyway.

    709 aquisition gets the best quality result for 709 delivery as grading degrades the images somewhat.

    The big caveat is of course you have to get it perfect on set.. but in a feature situation with enough lights and control and good enough monitoring one can get it perfect on set.

    The main reason to go non 709 is lack of lights/control and poor monitoring so you cant really see what you are doing. Most of us mortals dont have enough lights and cant monitor properly.


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    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_moore View Post
    Whats the problem shooting 709? Basically then one was delivering 709 anyway.
    Hmm, I would say it would be okay to shoot 709 if (1) delivering in 709 and (2) the camera lets you grade it how you like. For most cameras, #2 is false. For example, the way film rolls off the highlights is a severe grade away from a silicon sensor's default. But camera companies, being large corporations, are bureaucratic, run by committee, and therefore conservative and mediocre. Therefore the in-camera choices don't let you take it far enough. That's why I'm like, "Just let me record raw or log, and I'll do it my way in post."

    as grading degrades the images somewhat.
    Grading doesn't degrade the image as long as you starting with at least 10-bit log.


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    Senior Member Eric Coughlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by combatentropy View Post
    Grading doesn't degrade the image as long as you starting with at least 10-bit log.
    That's not my experience.


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    Quote Originally Posted by combatentropy View Post
    Grading doesn't degrade the image as long as you starting with at least 10-bit log.
    If that were true then there would be no point to 12-bit 444 files. There definitely is.
    Mitch Gross
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