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    #11
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    Disney missed a big opportunity. Rather than doing their usual creative thing and making magic, they played it safe and just rehashed the original trilogy. The original trilogy is timeless, will last for generations. The new films I can't remember anymore because there is nothing unique to them.

    rogue one=empire strikes back (taking down com tower)
    force awakens=new hope (take down death star)
    last jedi=empire stricks back (luke I am your father/rey your family is nobody)
    rise of skywalker=return of the jedi(killing palpatine)
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    #12
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    Meh. It was okay, not great. But it makes for an interesting study in plot development, if you view the films in larger arcs. Who actually is the protagonist? Whose story is being told?

    For example, the original trilogy can be said to be the story of Luke, his growth from whiny nothing to being the greatest Jedi in the Galaxy. In the same way, you could view the newest trilogy as the story of Rey (or, alternately, the combined story of Rey and Ben). And the prequel trilogy, well, I am not going to waste many brain cells on it but I guess an argument could be made that it's the story of Anakin's fall, even though he wasn't an active protagonist in the first movie, but whatever.

    The fun starts when you take a step back, and view the dramatic arc on a different scale. If you follow the arc of the first six films together, then it becomes the story of Vader, his rise and fall. On the other hand, if you view the last six films as a complete arc, a good case could be made that it's actually Leia's story, and her arc that we follow. She is clearly the one who starts the ball rolling, and her goal of overthrowing Palpatine isn't completed until the end of the sixth film in that group. It's her quest that's completed, and her goal that's accomplished.

    And the mind blows when you take the big step back and view all 9 films together as one gigantic arc. It might be tempting to say that the 9-film arc is the story of the Skywalkers, as the first Skywalker is introduced in the first prequel and the last one (Leia) is lost in the last film, and Rey chooses to adoot the name and continue the line... but ... At the same time, the Skywalkers are not who set things in motion. In fact, the overall story, the overall action, it's all down to... Palpatine. If you dig into some of the EU stuff, apparently Palpatine (and Plagueis) conducted experiments in immortality that led to Anakin/Vader's virgin birth. Making Palpatine Anakin's father, inasmuch as he has one. Palpatine manipulated Anakin through the promise of being able to raise the dead to the point of him becoming Vader. Palpatine was behind the cloning of the clone army, as a prequel to him cloning himself. Palpatine created and manipulated Snoke, who manipulated Kylo Ren and Rey. And Palpatine created Rey, a generation removed. Palpatine became the embodiment of the dark side and every Sith who ever lived, and he told Rey and Ren that he was "every voice they ever heard in their heads." It was Palpatine's goals and actions that drove every major plot development in the 9-film saga. And what Palpatine was pursuing, from before Anakin's creation, is what was finally delivered at the end of the 9th film: resurrection through the Force.

    Some of that comes from the extended universe, specifically the stuff that Palpatine and Darth Plagueis were up to. It would have been nice to see it directly mentioned in the films to make it canonical, who knows, maybe they did shoot something about it and will include it in some Directors Cut or something.

    I find this kind of thing fascinating. I don't think we have ever seen something like this attempted in cinema.
    Last edited by Barry_Green; 01-13-2020 at 08:31 PM.


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    #13
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    The villain typically is the instigator. Before the movie begins, he has been operating behind the scenes. When the movie begins, his plan is already in motion. The villain continues to make the first moves, perhaps for the first half of the movie, always one step ahead of the hero. The hero is just reacting at first. At some point, the hero matures enough to get ahead of the ball, take over the initiative, and aim for the kill. Perhaps that is typically the start of Act III?

    Anyway, what you say is intriguing. If only they had ever got around to making the other two trilogies. It's too bad we only have episodes IV-VI.


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    #14
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    It was the "dog's breakfast" of Star Wars movies. Lots of pointless scenes that neither develop the characters or further the plot.



    *** SPOILERS ***

    The whole idea that the Force can do anything now. I half expected Rey to use the Force to whip up some mocha-lattes from time to time.

    The scene that sums up "The Rise of Skywalker" for me was the "cavalry charge" on horseback on top of a star-destroyer in space. This was using the Force to Jump the Shark a million times over, and one of the stupidest things I've ever seen on film.

    I really hope that somebody does a good parody of TROS because it is so ripe to have the p*ss taken out of it.


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    #15
    Moderator David Jimerson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry_Green View Post
    Meh. It was okay, not great. But it makes for an interesting study in plot development, if you view the films in larger arcs. Who actually is the protagonist? Whose story is being told?

    For example, the original trilogy can be said to be the story of Luke, his growth from whiny nothing to being the greatest Jedi in the Galaxy. In the same way, you could view the newest trilogy as the story of Rey (or, alternately, the combined story of Rey and Ben). And the prequel trilogy, well, I am not going to waste many brain cells on it but I guess an argument could be made that it's the story of Anakin's fall, even though he wasn't an active protagonist in the first movie, but whatever.

    The fun starts when you take a step back, and view the dramatic arc on a different scale. If you follow the arc of the first six films together, then it becomes the story of Vader, his rise and fall. On the other hand, if you view the last six films as a complete arc, a good case could be made that it's actually Leia's story, and her arc that we follow. She is clearly the one who starts the ball rolling, and her goal of overthrowing Palpatine isn't completed until the end of the sixth film in that group. It's her quest that's completed, and her goal that's accomplished.

    And the mind blows when you take the big step back and view all 9 films together as one gigantic arc. It might be tempting to say that the 9-film arc is the story of the Skywalkers, as the first Skywalker is introduced in the first prequel and the last one (Leia) is lost in the last film, and Rey chooses to adoot the name and continue the line... but ... At the same time, the Skywalkers are not who set things in motion. In fact, the overall story, the overall action, it's all down to... Palpatine. If you dig into some of the EU stuff, apparently Palpatine (and Plagueis) conducted experiments in immortality that led to Anakin/Vader's virgin birth. Making Palpatine Anakin's father, inasmuch as he has one. Palpatine manipulated Anakin through the promise of being able to raise the dead to the point of him becoming Vader. Palpatine was behind the cloning of the clone army, as a prequel to him cloning himself. Palpatine created and manipulated Snoke, who manipulated Kylo Ren and Rey. And Palpatine created Rey, a generation removed. Palpatine became the embodiment of the dark side and every Sith who ever lived, and he told Rey and Ren that he was "every voice they ever heard in their heads." It was Palpatine's goals and actions that drove every major plot development in the 9-film saga. And what Palpatine was pursuing, from before Anakin's creation, is what was finally delivered at the end of the 9th film: resurrection through the Force.

    Some of that comes from the extended universe, specifically the stuff that Palpatine and Darth Plagueis were up to. It would have been nice to see it directly mentioned in the films to make it canonical, who knows, maybe they did shoot something about it and will include it in some Directors Cut or something.

    I find this kind of thing fascinating. I don't think we have ever seen something like this attempted in cinema.
    Well, I suppose it's Palpatine's story in the same way most James Bond films are the villains' stories. Which is something I've argued from time to time, sometimes seriously, sometimes not.

    Or, getting down to it, that The Wizard of Oz is Glinda's story, and how she manipulated Dorothy into eliminating all of her rivals for power in Oz.
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    #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jimerson View Post
    Well, I suppose it's Palpatine's story in the same way most James Bond films are the villains' stories. Which is something I've argued from time to time, sometimes seriously, sometimes not.

    Or, getting down to it, that The Wizard of Oz is Glinda's story, and how she manipulated Dorothy into eliminating all of her rivals for power in Oz.
    The difference here is, Palpatine was the one continuous character throughout, whose motivations, goals, and quests drove everything that happened. And he didn't have a consistent antagonist. Every trilogy had its own antagonist for Palpatine, and even in the two six-film arcs it's possible to identify an individual antagonist for him, but when viewed in the context of the overall giant arc of all 9 films, there isn't one. No one character influenced the overall arc of all 9 films the way Palpatine did. The closest he had to a consistent antagonist would probably be Leia, but she didn't even exist in the prequel trilogy. Heck, nobody in the entire Star Wars Universe appeared through all 9 films or even existed in all 9, other than Palpatine... (whether he appeared directly as a character, or as a manipulation of Snoke and Kylo and Rey in ep's VII and VIII, which he clearly claimed he did).


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    #17
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    Have ya'll seen the original script released? It is BY FAR MUCH better...

    This is a great breakdown, with more details:
    Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ShS32kJclU
    Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m62H56LMB-U
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    #18
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    I also did a podcast with my review. I was very disappointed... to be honest.

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    #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Rice View Post
    Have ya'll seen the original script released? It is BY FAR MUCH better...

    This is a great breakdown, with more details:
    Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ShS32kJclU
    Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m62H56LMB-U
    I read that, and I think it's a wash frankly. Some things seem better, others are just as or more problematic. Mainly, pulling a new main villain out of your butt in the third movie without any groundwork in the previous two, in something designed to be a trilogy, is a mistake. Palpatine at least was in the other trilogies, although having him pop back up this late in the new trilogy still bothers me. Also, I think Kylo Ren having a redemption arc is better, and the best thing about the new movies.
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    #20
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    A lot of the problems come down more to nuance of execution and rushed timing. The amount of content in this trilogy arc as is could/should be 12 hours, not 6-7.

    Palpatine coming back is fine, but the way in which he comes back feels too shoehorned. I'm sure this will be fleshed out more in future materials... but if this was hinted at earlier, ie in episode 8, and fully explained perhaps as palpatine's force ghost inhabitating a previously cloned body of palpatine - animated by his dark essence... pulling the strings in the background... I think this would have worked better with more nuance and detail. In fact I think this is what they were going for, but it sort of just feels randomly inserted and under-explained. Conceptually the idea is strong enough - it brings the trilogy full circle with the concept of a "Phantom Menace" pulling the strings invisibly in the background weaving through all nine. It ties into deeper spiritual arcs in global mythology and religion (the idea of a "satan" - an invisible adversary that is the source of all evil we see manifest in the world). Star Wars has always pulled on that kind of stuff (Anakin, Virgin birth, the hero's journey, a fusion of eastern and western mysticism, etc.).

    The way all of if it feels in practice is like they were making it up as they went, relying on supplemental materials to fill in contrived yet essential plot holes... some explanations which also feel made up as they go... so it lacks the cohesive weight it should have.

    In some ways, though, that's been the nature of Star Wars since day 1. In other ways, its frustrating to see one of the wealthiest companies in the world approach such a beloved franchise and awaited return so recklessly. A lot of people like to bemoan particular story choices; that I am not so concerned with (this could have gone a MILLION ways and everyone would disagree in the end), so it's not that - my disappointment is rather the lack of sufficient forethought and pre-planning that has unfortunately marked the last 3 entries.

    As it is, I enjoyed them for what they were and had a good enough time. It's just that nagging feeling of how they could have (and *should* have) been so much more... oh well.


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