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    #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Brown View Post
    Let’s face it, the end of Red is near.
    I think a great deal depends on Komodo.

    DXL and DXL2 hasn't been as successful as they hoped (in terms of takeup)

    The Ranger is an acknowledgement that they really are cameras that are mostly appealing to owner operators, the red base if you will. Rental companies don't really like them. I'm not sure they've been too successful either.

    Netflix originals once kind of guaranteed them marquee work, but now they have stiff competition and I think they're coming in behind Venice and Alexa now. Even their top shelf product in't cutting through.

    Their pricing has very much been trending up and towards more exclusive and their customer base likes it that way.

    I think they're trying to find a place but they're being squeezed at the top by Sony and Arri and they're being squeezed from below by the new comers along with the establishment (canon / sony) who are also making very decent second tier cameras.

    Komodo will be what opens up a new customer base to them...maybe...if the value proposition is good. But that's a pretty hot area right now with lot's of options. They are almost certain to be more expensive, it's just a question of if this part of the market will see value in that more expensive camera which on paper probably won't have much of a spec advantage compared to other offerings, short of some un-announced unique show stopping feature.

    Let's imagine Komodo is a pretty nice RED lite camera and it's well specced enough, but not so much that it pisses off the existingf RED users...that doesn't leave a lot of room for specs / features and on price it's already not going to be less than 10K once you're shooting with it. That's a busy price point.

    Will there be enough sales to drive the development of the next generation of RED ? Do the recent revelations hurt them at all ? Does Apple winning their challenge of their IP hurt them ? it really has been interesting for RED even before all of this stuff came along.

    JB
    Cinematographer
    Sydney Australia
    www.johnbrawley.com
    I also have a blog


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    #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Brawley View Post
    I think a great deal depends on Komodo.

    DXL and DXL2 hasn't been as successful as they hoped (in terms of takeup)

    The Ranger is an acknowledgement that they really are cameras that are mostly appealing to owner operators, the red base if you will. Rental companies don't really like them. I'm not sure they've been too successful either.

    Netflix originals once kind of guaranteed them marquee work, but now they have stiff competition and I think they're coming in behind Venice and Alexa now. Even their top shelf product in't cutting through.

    Their pricing has very much been trending up and towards more exclusive and their customer base likes it that way.

    I think they're trying to find a place but they're being squeezed at the top by Sony and Arri and they're being squeezed from below by the new comers along with the establishment (canon / sony) who are also making very decent second tier cameras.

    Komodo will be what opens up a new customer base to them...maybe...if the value proposition is good. But that's a pretty hot area right now with lot's of options. They are almost certain to be more expensive, it's just a question of if this part of the market will see value in that more expensive camera which on paper probably won't have much of a spec advantage compared to other offerings, short of some un-announced unique show stopping feature.

    Let's imagine Komodo is a pretty nice RED lite camera and it's well specced enough, but not so much that it pisses off the existingf RED users...that doesn't leave a lot of room for specs / features and on price it's already not going to be less than 10K once you're shooting with it. That's a busy price point.

    Will there be enough sales to drive the development of the next generation of RED ? Do the recent revelations hurt them at all ? Does Apple winning their challenge of their IP hurt them ? it really has been interesting for RED even before all of this stuff came along.

    JB
    I think the biggest question for Komodo is toughness and reliability.
    When it comes to a B cam, it really needs to be a tough piece of kit if it's coming in at a higher price point.
    If it's going on gimbals and into funky places, dependability is essential.
    However, we know that RED hasn't been exactly great at that in the past.
    This is one place where ARRI really has had an advantage.
    I think if they concentrate on doing less and in a more focused manner it would be really helpful.
    KISS. Keep it simple and strong.
    If they can manage to do this they might have a winner.
    Last edited by yoclay; 10-30-2019 at 02:34 PM.


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    #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Brawley View Post
    The Ranger is an acknowledgement that they really are cameras that are mostly appealing to owner operators, the red base if you will. Rental companies don't really like them. I'm not sure they've been too successful either.
    I think rental houses like REDs fine, they get rented a lot, but a lot of those REDs are still on the 6K Dragon sensor and covered in all the accessories the rental houses had to buy to make those Epics usable. Rental houses would rather follow the Arri update cadence than the RED one. There's so many RED models these days it's hard to know what you're getting if you're not keeping up, most people are still probably fine renting 6K Epics.


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    #34
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    Lately I’ve seen more and more used Red cameras going cheap so some users are dumping their Reds for something better.


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    #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Brawley View Post
    I think a great deal depends on Komodo.
    I'm very intrigued by what Komodo might be. It sounds like it'll be something along the lines of the Red Raven camera, but that seemingly came and went with barely a ripple in the market.

    The new Ranger bodies looks great, they're what I've wanted Reds to be for a while (sans internal NDs).

    I'm surprised the DXL hasn't been popular though. That Monstro sensor makes GORGEOUS pictures, and the setup and ergonomics of the DXL are probably my favourite of any production camera I've seen to-date.


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    #36
    Senior Member SJX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grug View Post
    I'm very intrigued by what Komodo might be. It sounds like it'll be something along the lines of the Red Raven camera, but that seemingly came and went with barely a ripple in the market.

    The new Ranger bodies looks great, they're what I've wanted Reds to be for a while (sans internal NDs).

    I'm surprised the DXL hasn't been popular though. That Monstro sensor makes GORGEOUS pictures, and the setup and ergonomics of the DXL are probably my favourite of any production camera I've seen to-date.
    I think DXL didn't catch on because of the link to Red. Most high end DPs are arri guys and dislike Red it seems. Or most movies would not be shot with arri. I think if panavision camera was by another manufacturer it would be more popular. If it had its own sensor or maybe even sony sensor again. This is my impression.


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    #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grug View Post

    The new Ranger bodies looks great, they're what I've wanted Reds to be for a while (sans internal NDs).

    I'm surprised the DXL hasn't been popular though. That Monstro sensor makes GORGEOUS pictures, and the setup and ergonomics of the DXL are probably my favourite of any production camera I've seen to-date.
    I just went through a huge test / shootout of DXL (Ranger too) Alexa 65 and Venice.

    While I like a lot about the DXL2, mostly the panavision added features, the imaging side of things was very close with all of them.

    I have found in the past RED cameras have a sweet spot. If you're in that sweet spot it indeed looks really very nice. But. As soon as you're not in that sweet spot, it can get hard very quickly. That sweet spot is much more narrow than on other cameras.

    I'm talking of mixed lighting or difficult lighting combinations, especially down the lower end of the K scale. My current show has a lot of candlelight and scenes lit by fire and only candle light. It wasn't that DXL didn't look good and couldn't be graded to look good, it just took more work in my testing and grading with a senior and experienced colourist to get it to look good. I don't think the DXL RED handles low kelvin lighting very well, or mixed lighting down that end of the spectrum.

    I ran out of time, but PV wanted me to try some different OLPFs thinking that they could get a better low K optimized result, but it was too late, as we had to go to camera.

    By the way at straight tungsten with REAL tungsten lighting, and only tungsten lighting (no LED's) it looked gorgeous, something that RED cameras in the past have struggled with more.

    I think in the right environment the DXL is stunning, but on the last few shows when it's come to testing in my shooting circumstance, it's just not worked out that way and I'm guessing by the relatively easy availability of DXL, that they're not flying off the shelves.

    JB
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    www.johnbrawley.com
    I also have a blog


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    #38
    Senior Member Grug's Avatar
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    Interesting, thanks for the thoughts JB. I guess that sounds a bit like the older Dragon sensor - at 250 ISO that thing looks just incredible (but then starts to break down noticeable as you push it to 500 and 800 ISO).

    The OLPFs are an unfortunately added complication. They do seem to make a difference though.

    I really like the looks that Light Iron have developed for it, they seem to bring it much closer to an Alexa-style workflow where you can just drop the LUT in, and you're most of the way there already.

    How did you feel Alexa65 and Venice compared? Those 8-steps of ND and the 5 second bootup for the Venice are just such appealing features to me.


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    #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grug View Post
    Interesting, thanks for the thoughts JB. I guess that sounds a bit like the older Dragon sensor - at 250 ISO that thing looks just incredible (but then starts to break down noticeable as you push it to 500 and 800 ISO).
    I'm talking more about colour and grade robustness around the white point, not the light level itself (iso/noise)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grug View Post
    The OLPFs are an unfortunately added complication. They do seem to make a difference though.
    Huge.

    Panavision have been working hard on their own iterations too but OLPFs are really hard to get right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grug View Post
    I really like the looks that Light Iron have developed for it, they seem to bring it much closer to an Alexa-style workflow where you can just drop the LUT in, and you're most of the way there already.
    Yeah common sense stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grug View Post
    How did you feel Alexa65 and Venice compared? Those 8-steps of ND and the 5 second bootup for the Venice are just such appealing features to me.

    I like them both.

    venice really impressed me. Last Sony i used was the F55 RAW on V4. It fell apart much past 1250 and I rated it at 800. Venice is a great improvement. I like the look and the image a lot more than I thought I would. It was very very impressive.

    If it wasn't a candle lit show I would have probably gone Venice. 2500 ISO was limiting in terms of DR and I like the look at 500, but it was a bit on the low side. It takes a while to show up but the noise wasn't very nice either so once you push it up past 500 it gets nasty. The noise reminded me of the F55. Alexa noise seems less offensive to me.

    ND and the like is secondary to me.

    A65 was also really special, but the footprint is very large. (Camera size)

    At the high end like this, they're all good and have their strengths and weaknesses.

    JB
    Cinematographer
    Sydney Australia
    www.johnbrawley.com
    I also have a blog


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    #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grug View Post
    I'm very intrigued by what Komodo might be. It sounds like it'll be something along the lines of the Red Raven camera, but that seemingly came and went with barely a ripple in the market.
    That was probably due to a combination of not being at all upgradeable, and having a year long pre-order queue.

    The new Ranger bodies looks great, they're what I've wanted Reds to be for a while (sans internal NDs).
    Agreed. The design is much more user friendly than the stock DSMC2 bodies.

    I'm surprised the DXL hasn't been popular though. That Monstro sensor makes GORGEOUS pictures, and the setup and ergonomics of the DXL are probably my favourite of any production camera I've seen to-date.
    I'm not. It's a rental only item, and you can only rent it from Panavision, which isn't exactly mainstream. Its market is pretty limited to begin with.


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