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    Senior Member JPNola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob norton View Post
    JP I think you should talk about the loupe situation a few more times!
    Sorry. Didn't mean to drive you loopy.
    Big sources matter.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlin View Post
    I wouldn't be at all surprised if I got the model names mixed up... I do that
    Thanks for posting the video!

    Unfortunately, it looks like Atomos isn't planning updates for the Shogun Inferno. I think this is really unfortunate since the Shogun Inferno is obviously capable of processing a 6Kish image on the EVA1. It seems reasonable that they might be able to do the same on the S1H.

    I do feel a bit abandoned and I think Atomos is creating an opportunity for Blackmagic. Some Shogun Inferno owners might consider adding one of the new Video Assist units and giving B-RAW a try.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlin View Post
    That said, AFAIK the only difference between the Shogun Inferno and the Shogun 7 is the display, though the difference there is huge. Jeromy talks about that in the same interview also -- how Atomos was able to update its peak brightness with a firmware update. It's an interesting listen.
    The Shogun 7 also has significantly more processing power which is why it's able to do the live switching that will become available next month.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlin View Post
    The new raw codecs are pretty impressive in their efficiency. As storage improves, especially in the camera media, space and record times will be less of a issue. Now all we need is graphene batteries to replace LiPo and Li Ion so that we can get a nice boost in power density and battery life...
    That would be nice!

    _________

    Jeromy did mention that it might be possible to go up to 14 bits with Shogun 7 which would likely make most FX9 users happy.

    On the downside it it looks like to get 16 bit RAW it looks like the only option will be buying a Neon and paying an estimated $5K price to get a new MCU. Ouch and ouch!

    Sony could have just let FX9 work with the R5 and R7 recorders like the FS7, FS5, and FS700. The recorders and especially media are pricey but at least it would have been a rental option for FX9 owners. Sony clearly doesn't want FX9 users to record 16-bit RAW if the only option is a tethered $9K desktop solution.


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    On the downside it it looks like to get 16 bit RAW it looks like the only option will be buying a Neon and paying an estimated $5K price to get a new MCU. Ouch and ouch!
    I overheard Alister Chapman today as he was giving an interview saying that raw likely wont be available until summer next year. By that time Atomos have probably released 84 new shogun models so Im sure well be fine.
    Sony NEX-FS700R | A7S | Odyssey 7Q+ | Atomos Ninja V
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary T View Post
    Thanks for posting the video!
    No problem!

    Unfortunately, it looks like Atomos isn't planning updates for the Shogun Inferno. I think this is really unfortunate since the Shogun Inferno is obviously capable of processing a 6Kish image on the EVA1. It seems reasonable that they might be able to do the same on the S1H.
    Isn't S1H support already announced?

    I do feel a bit abandoned and I think Atomos is creating an opportunity for Blackmagic. Some Shogun Inferno owners might consider adding one of the new Video Assist units and giving B-RAW a try.
    Processing power isn't the only factor. If the system architecture isn't designed to be able to move around 16-bit data, then it's basically a non-starter. If it has datapaths that consist of (to oversimplify) 12 wires, then it's going top out at 12-bits.

    The Shogun 7 also has significantly more processing power which is why it's able to do the live switching that will become available next month.
    Since it can switch four streams of HD, it's not actually that much more processing power than required to handle a single 4K stream. It does require more sophisticated I/O, and that's probably where the 16-bit limitation is coming from -- plus the FX9's external 16-bit raw probably wasn't on Atomos' radar when it designed the Shogun 7. I'm sure that Atomos COULD have designed the Shogun 7 to handle 16-bit raw, but it's hard to see the future, and it would have raised the cost of the device, which Atomos probably was trying to avoid.

    Jeromy did mention that it might be possible to go up to 14 bits with Shogun 7 which would likely make most FX9 users happy.
    I'd expect so. And if Sony develops an S-Log implementation of some kind and uses that to encode its 16 bit linear data into 12-bit log, it would probably make MOST FX9 users happy.

    On the downside it it looks like to get 16 bit RAW it looks like the only option will be buying a Neon and paying an estimated $5K price to get a new MCU. Ouch and ouch!
    Yeah, might as well skip the FX9 and go for the Big Kahuna instead (i.e. Venice).

    Sony could have just let FX9 work with the R5 and R7 recorders like the FS7, FS5, and FS700. The recorders and especially media are pricey but at least it would have been a rental option for FX9 owners. Sony clearly doesn't want FX9 users to record 16-bit RAW if the only option is a tethered $9K desktop solution.
    I agree, it seems like a rather baffling decision -- reminds me of the Cion's 120fps support in 4K... but the only option for using it was a $20,000 Kona card in PCIe slot in a computer with a RAID... so I doubt that anyone has tried it yet.

    It's also possible that Sony's just looking guage demand for 16-bit raw for the FX9. People might try it out and decide they don't care enough, because they're all happy with 12-bit raw, in which case Sony would have no incentive to make its own recorder for it. Or if there IS demand, we might see an updated Shogun that can record 16-bit raw. Who knows?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamerlin View Post
    ... if there IS demand, we might see an updated Shogun that can record 16-bit raw. Who knows?
    Considering that there's (slow but steady) movement toward 8K, one would think that the next generation of the external recorders would be able to deal with a lot more data than the current ones. This seems rather inevitable. The key, insofar as FX9 goes, is how Sony and Atomos decide to proceed with their partnership. Atomos has struck some solid ones with Nikon and Panasonic. The external Atomos Raw recorder for FX9 might be pricey at first but, if the connectivity to Sony product is established, the same model should cover a lot of different cameras a la R5 & R7.

    PS. Sony would, naturally, be hesitant to open potential Atomos use in Venice or their other higher tier models but, with the "meat of the market" moving lower and lower, Atomos could hit the sweet spot across the entire lineup.


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    Quote Originally Posted by puredrifting View Post
    Besides, what, Arris, what else shoots XQD?
    Not originally but I know of many shooters using a variety of Sony 3 chip cameras plus a host of F5/F55 shooters where their cameras were all originally SxS card cameras who have now transitioned to using XQD cards with Sony's XQD ExpressCard Adapter. Way, way cheaper, SxS 128GB $990 vs $200 for the new 120GB XQD. The XQD cards support all the frame rates on all those SxS cameras and for those of us who have both types of camera, SxS and XQD it makes sense.

    Chris Young


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    Quote Originally Posted by puredrifting View Post
    Besides, what, Arris, what else shoots XQD?
    The Arri Alexa uses SxS cards and they don't seem to officially support the SxS adapter for XQD cards:
    https://forum.arri.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=147

    The Alexa Mini and Amira use CFast 2.0 cards.

    In addition to Sony which used XQD cards in the FS7, FS7 mkII, and a couple of their early 4K camcorders, the PXW-Z100 and FDR-AX1, Nikon bet pretty big on XQD. The Nikon D5, D500, D850, Z6, and Z7 all have XQD card slots. Panasonic also included an XQD card slot in the S1 and S1R, although they kind of split the difference with one SD card slot and one XQD and then went with dual SD slots in the S1H.

    I'm not sure why they didn't include CFexpress support in the FX9 though. CFexpress type B cards are the same connector type and dimensions as XQD, so it is possible for a camera to accept both types of cards for compatibility. And CFexpress definitely seems to be the future as it allows for significantly faster cards. The recently announced SanDisk CFexpress cards are faster without being any more expensive than existing XQD cards. Plus, they have a 512GB card which is a larger capacity than the biggest XQD card (256 GB) currently available and is actually less expensive per GB than the smaller cards:
    https://www.cinema5d.com/sandisk-cfe...-for-pre-order

    I suppose it's possible that the FX9 eventually gets a firmware update that enables CFexpress support, as in some cases this is doable through a firmware change. It's also possible that Sony wants to sell their own XQD media, since they are one of the few manufacturers of XQD cards, and Sony doesn't have any CFexpress cards on the market yet. Sony did announce the development of a CFexpress card earlier this year, but it doesn't actually seem to be available yet despite the claim that it would be ready by summer 2019: https://pro.sony/ue_US/press/cfexpress


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    Quote Originally Posted by firehawk View Post
    So who is thinking about buying?
    My FS7 with be 5 next month and needs replacing so I've ordered one. I've also got a deposit on a C500 mkII. I'm still not sure which way I'll go.
    New Website: www.liamhall.net
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    Quote Originally Posted by davedv View Post
    I suppose it's possible that the FX9 eventually gets a firmware update that enables CFexpress support, as in some cases this is doable through a firmware change. It's also possible that Sony wants to sell their own XQD media, since they are one of the few manufacturers of XQD cards, and Sony doesn't have any CFexpress cards on the market yet. Sony did announce the development of a CFexpress card earlier this year, but it doesn't actually seem to be available yet despite the claim that it would be ready by summer 2019
    I think you may be on the right track here that Sony probably wants to maintain its control over and continue to have control of their own proprietary XQD. Sony may indeed eventually support CFExpress technology but to do that means Sony would be relinquishing its control over what sort of media that goes into their cameras. Such as today you can user a Lexar XQD card if you wish. There is an argument that Sony have used in the past is that they will stand behind their product if it fails if that failure can be attributed to Sony media. If a failure is deemed by Sony to have occurred by the use of or contributed to by the use of non Sony media then Sony will not entertain a claim. These days with solid state media the risk of equipment failure is more unlikely to happen than with tapes and optical discs.

    A case I had direct involvement with was with an XDCam disc that caused thousands of $$$'s to my XDCam. The damage was caused by the media. In this particular case the XDCam disc in question somehow during its manufacture ended up with a very fine white powder, like talc powder inside the disc cassette. This fine powder was all across of the face of the optical disc. When you put an XDCam disc in a camera a split sliding door opens on the disc and the camera's BD laser then tracks in towards the disc to focus the laser. In this case because of the powder on the disc surface the laser couldn't focus and kept on coming in trying to find focus. It didn't succeed in finding focus. The drive mechanism drove the laser into the face of the disc totally destroying the laser and all the associated mechanism of the whole drive assembly.

    Sony wanted to charge for this very expensive repair. I fought them and won my case and the camera's whole optical back end was replaced free of charge. I was later told that had the faulty disc been a TDK or a Fuji XDCam disc I would have been on my own and Sony would not have entertained a claim as it was considered that the fault was brought about by faulty non Sony media. Ever since then I have never used anything else other than Sony media in Sony cameras or Panasonic P2 media in Panasonic cameras. What's the old saying. "Once bitten twice shy." I think Sony will only surrender to making their cameras compatible with the non proprietary CFExpress technology if they have little option. Don't forget Sony have a way to go on their own proprietary XQD road map which has been published. This lists up to 1000MB read and 1000MB write speeds.

    Chris Young

    Sony XQD roadmap.jpg
    Last edited by cyvideo; 09-17-2019 at 06:24 AM. Reason: spello!


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    Quote Originally Posted by davedv View Post
    The Arri Alexa uses SxS cards and they don't seem to officially support the SxS adapter for XQD cards:
    https://forum.arri.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=147

    The Alexa Mini and Amira use CFast 2.0 cards.

    In addition to Sony which used XQD cards in the FS7, FS7 mkII, and a couple of their early 4K camcorders, the PXW-Z100 and FDR-AX1, Nikon bet pretty big on XQD. The Nikon D5, D500, D850, Z6, and Z7 all have XQD card slots. Panasonic also included an XQD card slot in the S1 and S1R, although they kind of split the difference with one SD card slot and one XQD and then went with dual SD slots in the S1H.

    I'm not sure why they didn't include CFexpress support in the FX9 though. CFexpress type B cards are the same connector type and dimensions as XQD, so it is possible for a camera to accept both types of cards for compatibility. And CFexpress definitely seems to be the future as it allows for significantly faster cards. The recently announced SanDisk CFexpress cards are faster without being any more expensive than existing XQD cards. Plus, they have a 512GB card which is a larger capacity than the biggest XQD card (256 GB) currently available and is actually less expensive per GB than the smaller cards:
    https://www.cinema5d.com/sandisk-cfe...-for-pre-order

    I suppose it's possible that the FX9 eventually gets a firmware update that enables CFexpress support, as in some cases this is doable through a firmware change. It's also possible that Sony wants to sell their own XQD media, since they are one of the few manufacturers of XQD cards, and Sony doesn't have any CFexpress cards on the market yet. Sony did announce the development of a CFexpress card earlier this year, but it doesn't actually seem to be available yet despite the claim that it would be ready by summer 2019: https://pro.sony/ue_US/press/cfexpress
    Thanks for clarfying this. So basically, Sony and Nikon. As proven with the $2,500.00 back, old habits die hard at Sony. CFexpress would seem to be a better investment if you needed to own a massive amount of media to capture lots of long documentary interviews and footage.
    It's a business first and a creative outlet second.
    G.A.S. destroys lives. Stop buying gear that doesn't make you money.


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