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    #21
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    But it isn't just the focal length, live sports requires certain ergonomics and the power zoom (handheld) or big box lens is the standard for a reason, they just work the way people want them to work. Even with a teleconvertor to make the image circle larger, I don't think these are a good fit to an s35 sensor. Most are going to be 8mm, 9.5mm, or maybe up to 10mm. You'd need to more than double the image circle to cover the sensor (a nice graphic here for sizes) https://www.cinema5d.com/fs5-fs7-b4-...-4k-explained/

    If you start with a 10mm x 100, you put a 2.5x teleconvertor on it to get it up to the size you need, and lose 2.5 (or more) stops of light (really rough amount). Now you have a 25mm (near normal focal length on S35) to a 2500mm tight lens. Plus if the lens doesn't resolve more than 8k worth of lines, once you blow it up you will have a lot worse resolution. The teleconverters ALWAYS reduce resolution, you are spreading the finest detail that the lens can resolve out over a bigger area, and then sampling it over a greater number of photosites in a finer pattern. The larger the conversion, the more the image degrades. Let's assume a 6um photosite size for the 4k lens, in order to keep the same resolution (assuming zero loss from the converter), you'd need 15um size photosites just to keep the 4k resolution. If the photosites were still 6um on the larger sensor, you would have multiple sites gathering the same line with a 3 for 2 scheme or about 3.4k to 3.8k effective real lines of resolution.

    The above is gross approximation and gross exaggeration to get the point across. While this 8k sensor is a great achievement (don't forget this is global shutter too), I don't see this as being great for sports coverage in any way except as a handheld with a relatively short zoom like the ENG style Canon power zoom that is already on the market. We are really going to need lenses that can resolve this high, and are built for this size of sensor to really get the full benefit, and unless Canon or Fuji have something up their sleeve, this will leave out big box lenses like the 50x, 70x, and 100x sizes. The question then becomes, it is easier to design a lens for a small sensor or a big sensor image circle? If the big is easier, then modifying the big lenses might be an "easy" task.


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    #22
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    I'm sorry for sparking this tangent (unless y'all are enjoying it).

    In the interview video that DLD posted, it sounds like the first camera out of the gate will be something like the Varicam 35: a shoulder-mounted, Super 35 camera, and costing the most of any of Panasonic's cameras (although I would be surprised if it cost much more than today's Varicam). Like today's Varicam 35, you can use it for sports --- or not, it's up to you.

    I just thought it was a little funny how the conversation went. The interviewer said, "So this is Super 35...", and the rep looked like he felt he needed to apologize for it. This is because of all concurrent announcements of full frame. We have talked that trend to death, and we all know how we feel about it.

    I myself am not much of a stickler, and would accept any camera between S16 and Full Frame.
    Last edited by combatentropy; 09-20-2019 at 01:46 PM.


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    #23
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    Larger sensor cameras are certainly not unheard of in sports coverage. For example, the Sony HDC-4800 is a 4K high frame rate camera with a Super 35 sized sensor that is pretty clearly aimed at shooting sports and comes with a PL mount:
    https://pro.sony/en_FI/products/4k-a...stems/hdc-4800

    It's true that historically sporting events have been shot with 2/3" sensors and lenses with a very large zoom range, but I think the higher resolution 4K and 8K sensors and smaller pixel sizes have created some challenges for the standard 2/3" broadcast sensor size in terms of light sensitivity. This is especially relevant for a 4K camera like the HDC-4800 that shoots up to 480 fps because it means faster shutter speeds are required. And also matters for 8K where the pixel sizes shrink further.

    While I'm sure broadcasters would like to have the same kind of features in a smaller sensor, they seem willing to work with larger sensors if that's what is available. Sony has a live camera system for the F55 and Panasonic has something similar for the Varicam. Here's an article describing usage of the HDC-4800 for the NBA Finals:
    https://www.sportsvideo.org/2016/05/...speed-cameras/

    Generally speaking these larger sensor cameras aren't used as primary camera angles (which typically still use 2/3" sensors with box zoom lenses). Instead they are used more for replays or other specialty shots, where the extra resolution can be useful to do live crops or punch-in during replays.


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    #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLD View Post
    and Mitch takes credit for it -

    https://business.panasonic.co.uk/pro...ns-at-ibc-2019



    Global shutter too.
    I do?
    Mitch Gross
    Cinema Product Manager
    Panasonic System Solutions Company


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    #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Gross View Post
    I do?
    I should have said, "receives".


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    #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLD View Post
    A) Don't touch my mic! : ) I love how that video started.

    B) How many stops DR are we talking here? S/N ratios?

    C) Thanks for keeping S35 alive.
    Bill Totolo
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    www.billtotolo.com


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    #27
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    Expect greater DR with a lower S/N than currently available. Can’t give hard numbers yet because the system is still being tweaked to determine thresholds.
    Mitch Gross
    Cinema Product Manager
    Panasonic System Solutions Company


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    #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bill totolo View Post
    A) Don't touch my mic! : ) I love how that video started...
    You know those Panasonic executives. That guy has a history of taking off with people's mics, forks and bathroom towels.

    Anywho, when it comes to the DR, when the organic sensor was in development (with FujiFilm, I should add), they were expecting 18 stops. Now, they're talking 16. By the time the camera becomes operational, it'll probably be 14 and, by the time it hits the store shelves, it'll be perfect for Rec. 709.

    Of course, Rec. 709 itself is perfect for everything.


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    #29
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    I have a feeling that the DR has many qualifiers to it. Absolute DR might be 18 stops, but several of those might not be usable. SO now you get down to 15 or 16 usable stops of "clean" output. And while this has been in development for years (publicly) this is still a version 1 for production. Wait until they get down the road with the tools to make these imagers, mass produced version 3 might really have 18 stops of clean images.

    Also, can anyone say what level Fuji still has in this? I think they were working on the organic coating material and method for mass production, but could be wrong. There are a pile of people waiting for an X series camera with organic CMOS sensor. I know they kind of want to cut free of Sony sensors, and partnership with Panasonic would make that possible.


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    #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg_E View Post
    ... Also, can anyone say what level Fuji still has in this? I think they were working on the organic coating material and method for mass production, but could be wrong. There are a pile of people waiting for an X series camera with organic CMOS sensor. I know they kind of want to cut free of Sony sensors, and partnership with Panasonic would make that possible.
    It has been a joint project. The PR announcements were always from Panasonic but the reference was to the joint patents from 2011 or so. In any case, since FujiFilm doesn't make the high end/pro cameras, it's Panasonic's responsibility to shoulder this beast of burden until the cost of the manufacturing drastically comes down.


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