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    #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    How did you perform a double blind test with yourself in the loop?
    A friend handled the switch between cables so I didn't know which was which and he in turn rolled a dice to decide which cable to hook up so no one of us interfered in the selection procedure. I just sat down and listened.

    But seriously I found it a bit pointless to seek for the best cable as they all sounded good but very slightly different. This was everything from 2.5mm simple power cables to exotic expensive speaker wires. I would just adjust speaker placement and get much better sound.
    Last edited by J.Brown; 09-14-2019 at 01:59 PM.


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    #42
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    The phrase "jack of all trades, master of none" was a play/dig on the original phrase "jack of all trades, master of one."

    It is amazing how consistently the 80/20 rule holds up. IMHO pick something that you love deeply. If that's audio, video, motorcycle, cooking, or whatever - you really only have time to master one and still maintain a fully balanced life. For everything else, 80/20 gets you shockingly far, very quickly.

    Maybe that's why Klipsch speakers, monoprice cables, and a coin flip denon/marantz receiver are so popular. Leave the rest to those who enjoy listening to their speakers more than they enjoy listening to their movies.


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    #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPNola View Post
    A Gaffer I worked with years ago told of a shoot where he and the DP spent hours meticulously sorting out the lighting for a PSA featuring Casey Kasem. At the last minute, just as they were about to roll, Casey's wife arrived. She looked at the image of Casey on the monitor and said something to the effect of "He doesn't look right. I know Casey and his lighting needs...something." The Gaffer, frustrated by this, told Kasem's wife "Hold on a minute. I'm going to make a change and you tell me which you like better, before or after." The Gaffer went behind the white seamless backdrop, took a clothespin in his hand, and used the clothespin to make a "snap" sound similar to the clicking sound of the switch on an ARRI fresnel. He called out "Okay, ready?" He then said "better here?" made the clicking sound with the clothespin , and then said "or better here?". He repeated this "Better here?" <click> "or better here?". "here" <click> "or here?" Kasem's wife, watching the monitor, excitedly chose one of the options "oh, much better the second way! Now he looks right!".

    No change was made to the lighting, Kasem's wife got to think she was looking out for her hubby and putting her expertise into the mix, everyone won.
    I’m not sure if someone has said this later in the thread, but the first version of this story is Michelangelo doing this for a patron while finishing a sculpture. The patron thought the nose was too big so Michelangelo pretended to chizzle at it while sprinkling dust from his hands. Some of my employers use this forum so I will not say whether or not I ever use this same trick.
    "You'd better cure all those personal problems that might be holding back something you want to say." -John Cassavetes


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    #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by filmguy123 View Post
    ... Maybe that's why Klipsch speakers, monoprice cables, and a coin flip denon/marantz receiver are so popular. Leave the rest to those who enjoy listening to their speakers more than they enjoy listening to their movies.
    The classic Klipschorn (Paul stole an H from himself) was made for tubes. Many find the line a tad too harsh sounding on the solid state amps. The horns main benefit is their efficiency. Solid state amps, unless Class A, don't generally need it.


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    #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    Hi

    What is a double blind test and how is it performed, vs. single blind?
    If your question is “What is double-blind test?”, look here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinded_experiment
    https://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-d...blind-test.htm
    https://explorable.com/double-blind-experiment

    If you meant to ask whether I use double-blind tests to choose various pieces of gear for my stereo setup, or home theater setup, my answer is: “No”. Double-blind tests are necessary for scientific studies – which isn’t what I do when choosing audio gear.

    If you meant to ask if I take any measures to neutralize any possible ‘placebo effect’, my answer is “Yes”. Often I ask another person to switch that piece of gear which I’m evaluating without my knowing which one of the two, or three, is playing at any given moment.

    Now, again to my initial questions:
    1. How do you choose which music you enjoy more, or less, with yourself in the loop?
    2. How do you choose speakers, or earphones, with yourself in the loop?
    And I’d add:
    How do decide which Camera Profile, or LUT, is best, with yourself in the loop?


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    #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Brown View Post
    A friend handled the switch between cables so I didn't know which was which and he in turn rolled a dice to decide which cable to hook up so no one of us interfered in the selection procedure. I just sat down and listened.
    Sometimes I ask a neighbor who knows next to nothing about good stereo setups and who doesn’t know the price tag of the pieces of gear being switched.
    I cannot prove it to anyone else, but it seems to me that, at least at times, the consciousness, or thoughts, of other person(s) in the room influence the one who’s attempting to make one’s own unbiased decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Brown View Post
    But seriously I found it a bit pointless to seek for the best cable as they all sounded good but very slightly different. This was everything from 2.5mm simple power cables to exotic expensive speaker wires. I would just adjust speaker placement and get much better sound.
    It may be a matter of proportions.
    If I’d have an extra few hundred bucks, first I’d hire a pro acoustics expert and treat my listening room properly. Of course, properly treated listening room includes also proper placement of the speakers, the rest of the audio gear (often, not between the speakers) and the listening point.
    To my view, adding $200 isolation transformers to a $25,000 stereo setup is in proper proportion. Yet, I choose pieces of gear to my stereo setup according to their impact on my subjective enjoyment from listening to music through the setup, not according to their price tag – as long as the price is affordable by me and as long as with the same amount of money I wouldn’t be able to upgrade another link in the chain which may have more pronounced improvement to the sound quality.


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    #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by filmguy123 View Post
    ...
    Maybe that's why Klipsch speakers, monoprice cables, and a coin flip denon/marantz receiver are so popular. Leave the rest to those who enjoy listening to their speakers more than they enjoy listening to their movies.
    For me, there is a difference between stereo setup intended for listening to music and a home theater setup intended to watch and listen to movies. The audio chain in my home theater setup is about 1/10th of the price of the stereo setup.
    Indeed, there are some self-proclaimed ‘audiophiles’ who enjoy listening to their stereo setup more than listening to the music. I believe I’m not among those people. Actually, I enjoy going to concerts (classical music) more than listening to the same music at home.


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    #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by DLD View Post
    The classic Klipschorn (Paul stole an H from himself) was made for tubes. Many find the line a tad too harsh sounding on the solid state amps. The horns main benefit is their efficiency. Solid state amps, unless Class A, don't generally need it.
    Indeed. It goes for all high efficiency speakers.


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    #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua_G View Post
    If your question is “What is double-blind test?”, look here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinded_experiment
    https://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-d...blind-test.htm
    https://explorable.com/double-blind-experiment

    If you meant to ask whether I use double-blind tests to choose various pieces of gear for my stereo setup, or home theater setup, my answer is: “No”. Double-blind tests are necessary for scientific studies – which isn’t what I do when choosing audio gear.

    If you meant to ask if I take any measures to neutralize any possible ‘placebo effect’, my answer is “Yes”. Often I ask another person to switch that piece of gear which I’m evaluating without my knowing which one of the two, or three, is playing at any given moment.

    Now, again to my initial questions:
    1. How do you choose which music you enjoy more, or less, with yourself in the loop?
    2. How do you choose speakers, or earphones, with yourself in the loop?
    And I’d add:
    How do decide which Camera Profile, or LUT, is best, with yourself in the loop?
    Is there a difference between memorizing terms and pasting links vs. understanding the terms and what they mean?

    Can we simplify? Single blind = subject not knowing what's being tested and measured, and double blind adding that the test administrator also doesn't know?

    Is there a fundamental problem with audio A/B (+C/D etc.) tests and perception in terms of meaningful results that generalize to a population?

    Are there methods and means to remove subjectivity from tests which provide honest and true data to show one system is actually better than another which can be generalized to a population?


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    #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    Is there a difference between memorizing terms and pasting links vs. understanding the terms and what they mean?
    Of course there is a marked difference.

    Now:
    You constantly keep asking me questions, yet constantly ignore my questions to you. So, I wonder, is it some kind of contest of views for you, or an attempt to understand one another?

    It looks to me (though it isn’t scientifically verified) that when it comes to choosing audio gear for personal uses (listening to music and movies for personal enjoyment), in many cases the subjective overcomes the objective. That is, in some cases, some people are deeply convinced that their own choices are objective (without even trying to verify it to themselves), while they are deeply convinced that the choices of other people, which aren’t along the line of their own choices, are subjective (without even trying to verify if this is indeed the case). Thus, the line of thinking of those people may be somewhat like: “My choices are objective and correct, while the choices of others, which are different from mine, are subjective and incorrect, or biased”.

    (BTW, that attitude can be found in many other ares, but the present forum may not be the proper place to look into it).

    I’d like this discussion to be general, not personal. Yet, the only way I have at present, in the frame of this forum, to demonstrate a point to others is by pointing them to their own experiences.
    Thus, I’d ask you one more question:

    If my memory serves me right, in one post of yours of the past few months you raved certain electrostatic earphones (Stax, if I remember correctly). Your opinion, or impression, of the quality of those earphones – is it subjective, or objective?


    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    Can we simplify? Single blind = subject not knowing what's being tested and measured, and double blind adding that the test administrator also doesn't know?
    My answer is: “to a degree, yes”. I’m saying “yes, to a degree” because of I didn’t run scientific tests, there were no measurements and no test administrator. I made attempts to neutralize any possible bias on my part by not knowing which specific part was in connected during the test and having the person making the switch not familiar with those parts brand name and/or price tag.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    Is there a fundamental problem with audio A/B (+C/D etc.) tests and perception in terms of meaningful results that generalize to a population?
    Yes, there are few fundamental problems:

    1. In very many cases, the way any sound reproduction system sounds depends on the room where it’s being placed, sometimes even more, than the gear itself. ‘The room’ includes the size of that room and it’s acoustics, when the acoustics includes the placement of the speakers and the other parts of the setup and the listening position.

    For instance, often, physically large speakers will suit a large room, but not a very small room.

    2. Different people have different preferences concerning sound, especially music, reproduced at home environment. It is my repeated experience, which occurred many times, that for certain stereo setups, placed in certain living rooms, or certain homes, some people (beside the owner) raved it as having wonderful sound, while other people impressions were of a mediocre, or even bad sound.

    3. Different people have different frames of reference to what ‘good sound’ is.

    For instance: I listen mostly to classical music; my frame of reference is a concert hall I visit frequently, which in the past few years has a superb acoustics, where my usual sit is one of the best ones. To my knowledge, no reproduction system in the world, at any price, placed in a normal living room, or normal house, can reproduce the sound of, say, a Mahler symphony, or any other symphony as it’s being heard in that concert hall. Not even any chamber music, nor any solo instrument.

    Thus, what I’m left with is the subjective experience of enjoying listening to reproduced music in my living room – within my budget. What I try to eliminate is possible bias on my part concerning opinions of others, brand names and price tags.

    BTW, I test only various pieces of gear which are within by budget; I’m uninterested at all with anything which is beyond by budget.
    Of course I can have a better stereo setup and a better home theater system, but it’s beyond my budget – even if I’ll sell kidney… Actually, I’m not interested much in a better system, since I have other joys...

    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    Are there methods and means to remove subjectivity from tests which provide honest and true data to show one system is actually better than another which can be generalized to a population?
    As for the general public, the simple answer is: “No. Period”.
    Listening to sound, especially reproduced sound, especially music, is purely subjective.

    As for any individual person eliminating possible bias, yes, it’s possible. See above.

    However, again, proper evaluating the sound quality of a sound system, or setup, can be done only in the room it will placed, usually, ones’ living room.
    Which is one more reason why, concerning the general public, there cannot be any ‘better system’, nor ‘better system under certain price tag’.
    Last edited by Joshua_G; 09-16-2019 at 04:46 AM.


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