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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex H. View Post
    Thanks for the correction, Paul! I had read through the user manual and somehow missed that function! Though, that does sacrifice the audio output, so no cam hop or Comtek in that case. So, itís still better to use external TC boxes.

    I was, though, wondering why the 3 II and 6 II, with the addition of full TC support and the USB drive transfer, were not also given internal sound reports. Yeah, I can always pop the thumb drive over to my laptop and generate a report with Wave Agent, but itís nice just to hand the thumb drive off to the DIT (or the client) straight from the recorder.

    About to upgrade my 6 to the 6 II. Itís primarily my traveling sound design recorder for grabbing ambient tracks and SFX wherever I go, but on very small shoots (and especially low-budget) itís really nice to have something so compact that can handle the workload with zero gear-carrying fatigue.
    Your request is noted Alex!

    thx

    Paul


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    #52
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    If 32bit float is as amazing as it sounds, I wonder why that option wasn't incorporated into the new Scorpio or 833 that was just announced?


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    Not being sarcastic, but perhaps three quick guess:

    1) Perhaps SD thinks users of Scorpios and 833s understand how to control levels and are fairly happy with the limiters in those devices (not that they expect to use them much), and don't want to kick the can down to post...

    2) Perhaps the advantages of 32-bit float are more important to people who get levels wrong and/or want to record music or just about anything in uncontrolled environments, rather than the more (maybe) dialog-focused uses of Scorpios, 833s, etc. So OMBs rolling camera & sound and have way too much to do, Jam-band fans who are, um, distracted, sound designers...

    3) Perhaps some 32-bit stuff is in Scorpio & 833 but hasn't been activated yet and SD doesn't want to announce such a thing until it's closer to real. Says both have really robust and extensible processing engines. We may need to wait at least until SD staffers are back from IBC to find out.


    In the meantime, these two articles, which have probably already been posted here, make for interesting reading (and listening/tweaking):


    32-bit Float Files Explained
    Posted on August 29, 2019
    The MixPre II models introduce the ability to record 32-bit floating point WAV files. For ultra-high-dynamic-range recording, 32-bit float is an ideal recording format. The primary benefit of these files is their ability to record signals exceeding 0 dBFS. There is in fact so much headroom that from a fidelity standpoint, it doesnít matter where gains are set while recording. Audio levels in the 32-bit float WAV file can be adjusted up or down after recording with most major DAW software with no added noise or distortion. To understand the nuts and bolts of 32-bit files, keep reading. This paper discusses the differences between 16-bit fixed point, 24-bit fixed point, and 32-bit floating point files.
    https://www.sounddevices.com/32-bit-...les-explained/


    Sample 32-bit float and 24-bit fixed WAV files
    Posted on August 29, 2019
    These [downloadable] samples were recorded on a MixPre-3 II to demonstrate the advantage of using 32-bit float WAV files for recording. We split a signal from a MKH40 mic into two MixPre-3 IIs, one recording 24-bit fixed WAVs, and the other 32-bit float WAVs. We then applied too much gain to loud dialogue. Low-cut was set to 80 Hz, and no limiters were active. Both the original 32-bit float and 24-bit fixed file are heavily distorted and unusable.
    https://www.sounddevices.com/sample-...xed-wav-files/
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    Jim Feeley
    POV Media


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    #54
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    It just seems that the capability of capturing such a wide dynamic range of undistorted sound without limiters (which you can hear when active) would be of value to everybody. Insurance.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Feeley View Post
    Not being sarcastic, but perhaps three quick guess:

    1) Perhaps SD thinks users of Scorpios and 833s understand how to control levels and are fairly happy with the limiters in those devices (not that they expect to use them much), and don't want to kick the can down to post...

    2) Perhaps the advantages of 32-bit float are more important to people who get levels wrong and/or want to record music or just about anything in uncontrolled environments, rather than the more (maybe) dialog-focused uses of Scorpios, 833s, etc. So OMBs rolling camera & sound and have way too much to do, Jam-band fans who are, um, distracted, sound designers...

    3) Perhaps some 32-bit stuff is in Scorpio & 833 but hasn't been activated yet and SD doesn't want to announce such a thing until it's closer to real. Says both have really robust and extensible processing engines. We may need to wait at least until SD staffers are back from IBC to find out.


    In the meantime, these two articles, which have probably already been posted here, make for interesting reading (and listening/tweaking):


    32-bit Float Files Explained
    Posted on August 29, 2019
    The MixPre II models introduce the ability to record 32-bit floating point WAV files. For ultra-high-dynamic-range recording, 32-bit float is an ideal recording format. The primary benefit of these files is their ability to record signals exceeding 0 dBFS. There is in fact so much headroom that from a fidelity standpoint, it doesnít matter where gains are set while recording. Audio levels in the 32-bit float WAV file can be adjusted up or down after recording with most major DAW software with no added noise or distortion. To understand the nuts and bolts of 32-bit files, keep reading. This paper discusses the differences between 16-bit fixed point, 24-bit fixed point, and 32-bit floating point files.
    https://www.sounddevices.com/32-bit-...les-explained/


    Sample 32-bit float and 24-bit fixed WAV files
    Posted on August 29, 2019
    These [downloadable] samples were recorded on a MixPre-3 II to demonstrate the advantage of using 32-bit float WAV files for recording. We split a signal from a MKH40 mic into two MixPre-3 IIs, one recording 24-bit fixed WAVs, and the other 32-bit float WAVs. We then applied too much gain to loud dialogue. Low-cut was set to 80 Hz, and no limiters were active. Both the original 32-bit float and 24-bit fixed file are heavily distorted and unusable.
    https://www.sounddevices.com/sample-...xed-wav-files/


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    #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by DNN View Post
    It just seems that the capability of capturing such a wide dynamic range of undistorted sound without limiters (which you can hear when active) would be of value to everybody. Insurance.
    I bet that production pros are a lot more conservative when it comes to change, so investing a lot of money into something that they are not familiar with might not be a good fit.


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    #56
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    Reading the patent it appears they are using multiple ADCs (more AKM chips- looks like theyíre already using e.g. 4 to 2 or 8 to 1 modes to extend dynamic range).

    More chips = more power and complexity. Perhaps 10 channels in that form factor is the practical limit right now.

    32-bit floatís only drawback is 1/3 more disk space.
    32-bit float will be standard in the near future (no clipping or limiter artifacts, ever (unless u manage to clip the mic)).
    Last edited by jcs; 09-12-2019 at 02:10 PM.


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    #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDingo View Post
    I bet that production pros are a lot more conservative when it comes to change, so investing a lot of money into something that they are not familiar with might not be a good fit.
    Perhaps it's helpful to view 32-bit float as analogous to auto-focus: A useful too that's not needed or even beneficial to plenty of productions.

    Yes, before too long 32-bit float will be more common and more accepted; it's not a bad thing, but if the 833 doesn't have the ability to implement 32-bit float, that won't affect my decision to buy one or not (and I am considering buying one).

    Jim "does a lot of location audio work" Feeley
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    #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    Reading the patent it appears they are using multiple ADCs (more AKM chips- looks like they’re already using e.g. 4 to 2 or 8 to 1 modes to extend dynamic range).

    More chips = more power and complexity. Perhaps 10 channels in that form factor is the practical limit right now.

    32-bit float’s only drawback is 1/3 more disk space.
    32-bit float will be standard in the near future (no clipping or limiter artifacts, ever (unless u manage to clip the mic)).
    Is 33% really that big when it comes to audio? If it was video, I would unstand, but audio is way smaller.


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    32-bit float’s only drawback is 1/3 more disk space.
    32-bit float will be standard in the near future (no clipping or limiter artifacts, ever (unless u manage to clip the mic)).
    Maybe. In my experience film sound is about ten years behind music production and about five behind theatre. That gap is probably shrinking but? Big film is VERY conservative, there is a lot of $ involved if you make a mistake. If music moves over and all the DAW's come with 32 bit float built in then maybe film will start to budge. In 2005 or so I was at a post studio in LA and they were still using Mac's with SCSI drives and some very vintage version of PT.

    So it might be common in some fields in the near future but I wouldn't count on it as standard in production film work all that soon. Now the SFX folks are going to jump all over it, they will just convert files or post will have assistants converting files. They are not that likely to switch over in post either for a couple of reasons. One not enough equipment supports it right now. If I dropped a few million on a digital mixer I'm not looking at allowing 32bit in till that mixer gets an update. And post places HATE to have a library of mixed file types. So if I'm a post house and we decide to go 32bit someone is going to get paid to convert the libraries.

    In post for everything but micro budget no crew films it is all about compatibility. If I can't hand off my sessions to the mix with out having someone do conversions it's not happening.

    So I do believe it will happen but at least for films with a budget it's going to take awhile.

    As an example Soundtrack Pro and FCP 6 used 32 bit float in 2006, and we are talking about it like it is new 13 years later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noiz2 View Post
    Maybe. In my experience film sound is about ten years behind music production and about five behind theatre. That gap is probably shrinking but? Big film is VERY conservative, there is a lot of $ involved if you make a mistake. If music moves over and all the DAW's come with 32 bit float built in then maybe film will start to budge. In 2005 or so I was at a post studio in LA and they were still using Mac's with SCSI drives and some very vintage version of PT.

    So it might be common in some fields in the near future but I wouldn't count on it as standard in production film work all that soon. Now the SFX folks are going to jump all over it, they will just convert files or post will have assistants converting files. They are not that likely to switch over in post either for a couple of reasons. One not enough equipment supports it right now. If I dropped a few million on a digital mixer I'm not looking at allowing 32bit in till that mixer gets an update. And post places HATE to have a library of mixed file types. So if I'm a post house and we decide to go 32bit someone is going to get paid to convert the libraries.

    In post for everything but micro budget no crew films it is all about compatibility. If I can't hand off my sessions to the mix with out having someone do conversions it's not happening.

    So I do believe it will happen but at least for films with a budget it's going to take awhile.

    As an example Soundtrack Pro and FCP 6 used 32 bit float in 2006, and we are talking about it like it is new 13 years later.
    Yeah Scott float support goes, way way, back, I think circa 1998-2000 32-bit float (singles) became faster than integer for doing the math (DSP / digital signal processing). I remember doing tests with assembly language 32/64-bit fixed point vs. simple float 32 and was thrilled float was faster! And no more worrying about range issues. That's another reason float is so fast: we don't need to check range before/after each operation to prevent over/underflow for typical audio DSP (and even physics simulations (there are checks after integration finishes, for example, but not on every operation)).

    Pro Tools is still the gold standard for pro audio work- it and every audio tool I'm aware of supports 32-bit float. Even Audacity (free) supports 32-bit float. Reaper does DSP in 64-bit float (doubles): https://www.reaper.fm/ . Hardware has gotten so powerful, even phones can do 64-bit float with ease. Why process with 64-bit? Float-32 is 23 bits of fraction plus the sign bit and an 8-bit exponent. Float-64 (doubles) provide 52 bits of fraction. For some detailed audio work, this can make a difference apparently (I haven't personally A/B'd). Pro Tools also performs DSP in 64-bit float (doubles).

    Converting 32-bit float to 24-bit integer without editing it first could result in clipping or loss of information (levels recorded too high or too low).

    The only drawback is disk space- if 1/3 more disk cost affects a tight budget, that could nix recording in 32-bit float (or limit it for uncontrolled situations).


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