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    #21
    Senior Member Rick R's Avatar
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    I would not think so, since the mic has a 3-pin XLR output connector in an unbalanced configuration. I would assume Pin-1 shield/ground, w/ pins 2 & 3 being a left and right. In a normal XLR (balanced) input, Pins 2 & 3 are 180 degrees out-of-phase, so identical sound to both, would cancel out. I suppose there could be some kind of internal polar switch I'm not aware of though, and the features and specs did not state it. In any case, it is designed for unbalanced stereo inputs. Maybe contact AT tech support with these questions to be sure, I think the N America HQ is still in Ohio.

    FWIW, AT tech support was always nice to me, I once had a U-100 wireless system that was producing odd artifacts, After trying to fix it (twice), AT ended up sending me a new Tx and the system was even five or more years out of warranty. I have three of the 40-series mics that I really like as well.
    btw, The AT-825 I had, was balanced and had a 5-pin output connector w/ a breakout cable to two standard XLRs.
    Last edited by Rick R; 07-21-2019 at 11:59 AM.


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    #22
    Senior Member scorsesefan's Avatar
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    Thanks. How bad is it to run an unbalanced feed through 2-3 ft of xlr cable?


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    #23
    Senior Member paulears's Avatar
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    none of the zoom devices, or in fact any recorders I am aware of use 3 pin xLR to record stereo, not even unbalanced. XLR connectors that can be stereo are 5 pin types. I have a stereo mic that uses 5 pin XLR. All 3 pin XLRs are wired to the same spec for compatibility.

    You can run quite long runs of unbalanced mic level signals down normal cable used for mics. After all, the balancing is simply a convention designed back in the early days of the telephone, and offers noise reduction. Audio doesn't lose quality in unbalanced cabling, it just loses the extra noise benefits.


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    #24
    Senior Member Rick R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scorsesefan View Post
    Thanks. How bad is it to run an unbalanced feed through 2-3 ft of xlr cable?
    Not bad at all. The common rule of thumb by device manufacturers is to keep cable runs under 10 feet... much more is possible though depending on other factors (cable quality, proximity to power cables, radio RF, ect.. Back in the 70s (not to reveal my age), I ran unbalanced line level (-10dB) though a 100 foot snake for main and monitor returns frequently and do not recall noise that stopped a show. Of course that was sound reinforcement, recording is less forgiving


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    #25
    Senior Member scorsesefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulears View Post
    none of the zoom devices, or in fact any recorders I am aware of use 3 pin xLR to record stereo, not even unbalanced. XLR connectors that can be stereo are 5 pin types. I have a stereo mic that uses 5 pin XLR. All 3 pin XLRs are wired to the same spec for compatibility.

    You can run quite long runs of unbalanced mic level signals down normal cable used for mics. After all, the balancing is simply a convention designed back in the early days of the telephone, and offers noise reduction. Audio doesn't lose quality in unbalanced cabling, it just loses the extra noise benefits.
    How do you run a stereo mic to the F4, Paul? Is there a 5 pin to 3 pin xlr adapter? Or is it through 1/4 inch? Thanks
    Last edited by scorsesefan; 07-21-2019 at 09:03 PM.


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    #26
    Senior Member paulears's Avatar
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    For my stereo mic with its 5 pin xlr, it's wired pin 1 ground then 2 and 3 left, 4 and 5 right. I have a 5 metre stereo 5 pin xlr cable which is never long enough, so I use a 5 to 2x3 male xlr. If you aren't great at soldering, then the dmx lighting people use 3 to 5 adaptors and y splitters as dmx should use 5 pin connectors and a few lighting desks output two universes of dmx on a 5 pin, so split exist to split 5 to 2 x5 or 5 to 2x3. Probably simpler to just make what you need.

    The thing to remember is that you can run audio at mic level in unbalanced a very long way at 200-600 Ohm impedance. It's very different as impedance so rise, so worst case is a guitar that is very high impedance approaching MOhms where a 20ft cable can sometime result in a duller sound as the HF gets rolled off. CD players, mixers and other devices working at high KOhms typical impedance can manage 20ft easily.

    You could connect a typical dynamic mic with doorbell wire and it would have the same quality as the expensive normal mic cable. It would have no screening, and be prone to hums and stray interference from us shielded PSUs and the like, but outside in a field away from civilisation it would sound fine.

    If push came to shove you can always make up non-standard cables for a specific need. Two female XLRs could be wired to a single 3 pin xlr to unbalance them and feed screen, left and right - unbalanced down a normal cable. At the other end another y cable could respit it feeding say, the zoom, two unbalanced feeds on xlr. Wired 1 screen, linked to 3 and the signal on 2. The zoom's jacks on the com I connectors are not for mic level, don't forget. They do line level.

    For years I had balanced mics and all my recorders were unbalanced. The hum rejection thing is not as vital as we now believe. I remember my first recording device with balanced XLRs. I was disappointed that nothing different quality wise happened. In practise the main advantage is just phantom power. Here in the UK in the 60s and 70s we had balanced mics on 3 circuit ľ" jack plugs, and low impedance, as in 25 Ohms. Modern low impedance mics were called medium impedance!

    If you have a functioning balanced mic cable of decent length and a dynamic mic, try this experiment. Unscrew the xlr male, and replay it in so you can see the pins. Take an ordinary staple, open it up and use it to short out the two pins furthest apart. Keep in mind that you're touching one of the signal pins. You have unbalanced it. If it hums your body is probably introducing the hum. Stick a bit of tape or paper over the staple to isolate you from it and again listen to the results. You here a pop when you make the short, and then the mic carries on working fine. I bet you won't detect anything different in a blind test.

    Balanced is sensible and good practice but rarely critical.


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    #27
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    The AT BP4029 (AKA AT 835ST) is a nice mid-side (or stereo: switchable) mic that includes a 5-pin XLR to dual XLR 3-pin cable (have one- was my first 'pro'-ish level mic). Saw one used for $350 on eBay.


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    #28
    Senior Member Rick R's Avatar
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    Most stereo mics with a 5-pin XLR connector include a break-out cable (XLR-5F to two XLR-3M). If not, they are common and available from the usual suspect shops.
    I believe the F4 supports M/S monitoring (the F8 does). I prefer a M/S mic in sound-for-picture. Much more versatile than X/Y. The Zoom F series also have the option to record stereo files, opposed to two separate (left and right mono) files.


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    #29
    Sound Ninja Noiz2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulears View Post
    All 3 pin XLRs are wired to the same spec for compatibility.
    Actually that is not entirely correct. Some older equipment was wired pin 3 hot while just about everything after 1984 is pin 2 hot. If I remember correctly the pin 3 hot was mostly an east coast USA thing but it's been awhile since I saw any pin 3 hot gear.

    I also have never seen a three pin XLR wired for stereo or an input that would expect that. All the stereo XLR's I have are five pin.
    Cheers
    SK


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    #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by scorsesefan View Post
    How do you run a stereo mic to the F4, Paul? Is there a 5 pin to 3 pin xlr adapter? Or is it through 1/4 inch? Thanks
    The easy way to think about it is that stereo is two channels and so you need two inputs. The five pin is just two three wire cables with a shared ground. Stereo mics with a five pin XLR generally come with a Y cable that splits into a L and a R three pin XLR. On an F4 you would go to two channels and then set them to be a stereo pair in the settings.
    Cheers
    SK


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