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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Gross View Post
    What I find annoying is that many of the points in JinniMag’s videos have nothing to do with his product or his disagreement with RED. They also have nothing to do with Apple’s disagreement with RED. They appear to mostly be about making RED look bad and perhaps to illustrate a history of behavior for RED. Little of it has legal significance and some of it is rather misleading. In the end I find that weakens JinniMag’s position, not strengthens it.
    Do you find it annoying when journalists expose criminal activity that has nothing to do with their interests or disagreements with the exposed subject?

    I would think it speaks to Jinni's credibility that they're not trying to sell more Jinnimags with these videos.
    Benjamin Bettenhausen
    Mahalo Video
    www.mahalovideo.com


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    Quote Originally Posted by Benjobe View Post
    That's funny. Jinni has been very successful in exposing several lies and misdirections by RED and yet you find Jinni incredulous?
    So you believe everything Jinni says, eh?

    And you base your belief on... wishful thinking?

    Of COURSE I'm incredulous. I want proof one way or another before I make assumptions about one side or the other being correct.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Benjobe View Post
    Do you find it annoying when journalists expose criminal activity that has nothing to do with their interests or disagreements with the exposed subject?
    Not a great analogy. Journalists are professionals, bound by codes of conduct/law, and their work is usually heavily scrutinized by others before publication to ensure complete accuracy. Jinni has pointed out some truths, but he's also jumped to a bunch of conclusions for which he offers virtually zero evidence. That's pretty annoying behavior to me.

    I would think it speaks to Jinni's credibility that they're not trying to sell more Jinnimags with these videos.
    Just because he's not putting a "buy Jinnimag" link in the description does not mean he can't profit from this, nor that publicity for his own efforts could be his primary motivation in releasing these videos. (I doubt it is, seems more like a vendetta.) He did recently request funds for more of this.

    The guy definitely found some interesting and damaging things out, but to people who value facts and logic above all else, his wannabe True Crime docs that mix facts with heavy doses of speculation aren't doing much for him. If he's comfortable flexing the truth in one area, who is to say he isn't in an other?


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    it does feel a bit that Jinni has a bit up his rear about RED but...in this day and age it should be a lesson to any company that "
    the man behind the curtain is not what he was said to be"...can and will be revealed eventually.

    i appreciate RED in a lot of ways but geez do they blow it out their bottoms. much of this basic stuff being revealed about their media & sensors etc they sold knowing they were nowhere near the truth. yet...if you dont sell it "big" would they have gotten off the ground without all of their smoke and mirrors & hype that their products (not camera as much) were special and had the unique RED sauce.

    like would Apple have been as successful if Steve Jobs hadn't been there? i think not. Jobs made you think bigger and better of their products so i think its fair to say a company "sometimes" benefits from this kind of hype.

    honestly im enjoying RED getting outed as its just Karma coming back to them.

    david


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    I think this whole thing is going to get a lot messier before it gets cleaned up due to a couple of fairly recent patents both of which has J. Jannard along with G. Nattress and one Mr. Uday Mathur. The second one, GREEN IMAGE DATA PROCESSING, is especially interesting as this is almost an outline of what Apples ProRes RAW does, luminance with a lookup table. I can see Apple looking at this one hard. Grant Petty from BM alluded to how ProRes RAW worked in an NAB video interview at the 6:33 minute mark.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQHH-o_rmK8

    Uday Mathur is interesting as he has a solid pedigree in ASIC design and joined RED in 2008 as a digital system designer and was responsible for the embedded system design of the Academy Award-winning RED Epic. He later led the design of RED's DSMC2 line of cameras, the Panavision DXL, and several custom cameras built with RED technology. I think any chip and sensor innovations since 2008 and claimed by RED as their inventions are probably pretty bona fide due to him being there. Prior to 2008 though RED really looked to be a system aggregator. Picking and choosing bits of technology. No problem with that as many companies do that, and charge handsomely for it. ARRI acknowledges that in their case the ALEV III sensor was designed in conjunction with and built by ON Semiconductor. People accept and respect transparency.

    https://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolution...o?article=3723

    Where I see a lot of people getting upset with RED is that they have claimed prior to 2008 that they 'invented' a lot of the technology they used, including the sensor and their R3D Redcode. There is little to substantiate that with regards to the sensor to the best of my knowledge. In fact Dr. Eric Fossum, generally credited as being the designer of the original and first CMOS sensor (and there have been many iterations of CMOS since) said in October 2012 "Oddly I have never met or heard of an image sensor designer who works for RED." I think it's this hiding behind other peoples inventions and claiming them to be your own is what is hurting RED the most on their reputation front. The more they deny and litigate against anyone who dares contradict their statements the more potential buyers might feel wary of getting involved with RED. RED's loss I guess. I can only assume that the profit loss from the sale of cameras RED Inc. might be a fair bit smaller than any potential royalty payments from companies like Apple if they can win their case on internal RAW recording.

    I watch on with interest!

    Chris Young

    1st patent

    VIDEO CAMERA
    Publication number: 20180124290
    Abstract: Embodiments provide a video camera configured to capture, compress, and store video image data in a memory of the video camera at a rate of at least about twenty three frames per second. The video image data can be mosaiced image data, and the compressed, mosaiced image data may remain substantially visually lossless upon decompression and demosaicing.
    Type: Application
    Filed: September 7, 2017
    Publication date: May 3, 2018
    Inventors: James H. Jannard, Thomas Graeme Nattress
    https://patents.justia.com/inventor/...raeme-nattress

    2nd patent

    GREEN IMAGE DATA PROCESSING
    Publication number: 20180070061
    Abstract: Embodiments provide a video camera that can be configured to highly compress video data in a visually lossless manner. The camera can be configured to transform blue, red, and/or green image data in a manner that enhances the compressibility of the data. The camera can be configured to transform at least a portion of the green image data in a manner that enhances the compressibility of the data. The data can then be compressed and stored in this form. This allows a user to reconstruct the red, blue, and/or green image data to obtain the original raw data or a modified version of the original raw data that is visually lossless when demosaiced. Additionally, the data can be processed in a manner in which at least some of the green image elements are demosaiced first and then the red, blue, and/or some green elements are reconstructed based on values of the demosaiced green image elements.
    Type: Application
    Filed: July 21, 2017
    Publication date: March 8, 2018
    Inventors: James H. Jannard, Thomas Graeme Nattress, Richard Greene, Uday Mathur
    https://patents.justia.com/inventor/uday-mathur

    EDIT:

    Wwith a view to transparency and keeping up to date here is the latest I have found from Dr. Eric Fossum:
    https://image-sensors-world.blogspot...-theories.html

    Eric R FossumSeptember 22, 2019 at 10:05 PM

    Here is part of what I wrote to the (same) person who sent me the link:

    "Thanks for sharing this video. I did not watch it in full detail, but it certainly looks well investigated and produced. I will say my small consulting with Forza in í07 had nothing to do with RED. Other than that, I didnít see anything that I disagreed with that pertained to me, particularly as it drew from things available on the web, which never forgets! (At least not so far).

    Personally, I doubt the revelations in this particular chapter will come as much surprise to the image sensor community. If designed by Forza, they were incredibly tight-lipped about it, yet it seemed some people knew something, perhaps via other sources or their own investigation as exampled in this video. On the other hand, at the recent 2019 Int. Image Sensor Workshop, I finally ran into someone who claimed to manage a large team of sensor designers at Red. So my statement about never meeting a sensor designer from Red probably needs to be relative to the time of the statement. I donít recall his name and I can only take his word that he was a sensor designer or manager of sensor designers.

    I have also had occasion to look at a few patents of Jannard et al. The modular camera invention seemed like a nice innovation and the USPTO granted them a patent. Between that and the success of RED, I have to admire Jannardís entrepreneurship and tenacity at entering this market with a better and successful series of products (some not so successful, like with any company)."
    Last edited by cyvideo; 09-24-2019 at 10:38 PM. Reason: added info


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    Quote Originally Posted by Benjobe View Post
    Do you find it annoying when journalists expose criminal activity that has nothing to do with their interests or disagreements with the exposed subject?

    I would think it speaks to Jinni's credibility that they're not trying to sell more Jinnimags with these videos.
    I find your analogy puzzling. My complaint was about the misrepresentative nature of some of JinniMag’s statements and how some of the information “exposed” was of nothing greater than gossip or details that might embarrass RED but hardly rise to the level of deceitful much less criminal.

    There is some interesting stuff in the videos. There’s also some crap and I pointed that out. Including such material weakens the strength of the good stuff and that was my point.
    Mitch Gross
    Cinema Product Manager
    Panasonic System Solutions Company


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Gross View Post
    There is some interesting stuff in the videos. There’s also some crap and I pointed that out. Including such material weakens the strength of the good stuff and that was my point.

    You are not that first that I've seen make that same observation, Mitch. Others have also expressed that the Jinni-guy goes too far and in that weakens his position / credibility.

    The whole thing is ugly, sordid, and unfortunate. And imo something better left off this forum. No need to pile-on here on dvxuser when there are already lengthy discussions of the matter over on reduser and few here are RED owners anyway.
    Big sources matter.


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    The popcorn industry would disagree with you.


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    Quote Originally Posted by JPNola View Post
    You are not that first that I've seen make that same observation, Mitch. Others have also expressed that the Jinni-guy goes too far and in that weakens his position / credibility...
    Conjecture and lack of context is all over the established media. Throwing the kitchen sink to disparage an opposing view point is mode de rigueur in 2019.


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    Quote Originally Posted by JPNola View Post
    The whole thing is ugly, sordid, and unfortunate. And imo something better left off this forum. No need to pile-on here on dvxuser when there are already lengthy discussions of the matter over on reduser and few here are RED owners anyway.
    Except that they are already on their 3rd thread. The first two have been pulled. Reduser is also an integral part of the marketing formula for RED cameras, so that is not a surprise. Who knows how long this last thread will survive ?

    I actually made this comment over on the REDuser forum, but for whatever it's worth this is my viewpoint with regards to the vehemence of the debate :



    Why is anyone surprised that RED was using inexpensive consumer parts for their hyped products ?
    Frankly, any brand that creates a context of us vs. them (RED against the world) and consciously seeks to encourage "loyalty" in this manner is already cause for concern. You can be sure that this kind of situation will create opportunities for wider profit margins. In fact it is so obvious that I am surprised that anybody is surprised. The anger here is not because the components are a lot cheaper than what people paid for. I don't actually even begrudge RED for doing this. A camera is after all more than just the sum of it's components, and it is after all an american company in a capitalist, consumer economy that found new ways to advertise itself. [read RED forum]

    The anger here is because loyal users expected more loyalty from RED. They cannot believe that it is not a two way street. They cannot believe they have been taken (at least partially) for a ride.

    It's all about loyalty and betrayal. It's an emotional issue.

    What goes around comes around. If you ask your enduser's for their loyalty and then you use it as an opportunity to create extra profit margin (otherwise known as marketing), you had better expect great anger and a sense of betrayal. You had better expect that the fall from the pedestal is going to be particularly hard and brutal.

    Jinnimag is an example of disruption. So what happened to Jannard's love of disruption, when the target is his own company ? Self-righteous defensiveness and lawsuits (business as usual). Why ? Because rebels always make the best dictators. And their mirror always shows up.

    Both sides are angry. Both sides are arrogant. Both sides feel betrayed. And in the middle of all of this is the end user, who also feels betrayed.

    The lesson here is that you had better be careful when you base your existence on building loyalty in an us vs. them scenario. It always ends in the same way.
    Last edited by yoclay; 09-25-2019 at 10:41 PM.


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