Thread: UMP or EVA1?

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    #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amulet Man View Post
    Rent first if you can. Preferences are subjective.

    Yeah I think that is a good idea. Thanks everyone for the advice.


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    #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jefferypeterson View Post
    I got lol'd for asking on bmcuser .
    Sometimes, the fanatic, cult-like devotion of the user base of some companies is actually a negative for me, since there is very little unbiased/critical thinking going on (I'm thinking about BM & Red). For example, I know of BM users that received multiple defective cameras (if you read BM's forums long enough you pick up on this https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com) and are still devoted BM users. Which leads me to my point: BM is doing a lot of things that are great, but generally, their Quality Control is like playing Russian roulette: am I going to get a fully functional camera, or am I going to get a unit that: randomly shuts off, drops frames, loses footage..... Step right up and find out. So if you asked me which company I would trust more to produce cameras that work properly on professional jobs, I'd pick Panasonic by a mile over BM. So if dependability and realibility are important factors to consider (they should be), keep that in mind. And that is one of the reasons why I have mostly used Sony and Panasonic cameras (not saying they're 100% reliable, nothing is, but they've been close).

    BM positives:
    Da Vinci Resolve included (not a positive unless you use it).
    Color Science is really good (subjective, but I really like it). I love the look their cameras produce (the 2.5K cinema camera is probably their best camera in that regard, IMO: https://vimeo.com/86581300
    Price: very competitive, but a camera that is priced at $6K is not worth that much if it doesn't work properly, imo. A lot of BM users are perfectly willing to overlook/downplay this.

    Negative:
    QC issues: FPN issues. Low light issues..... Experience may vary... Etc.

    EVA1: Positives
    Close to the price range of the UMP G2 ($6.4K, no Resolve).
    Hither resolution (5.7K vs. 4.6K).
    ProRes Raw (not an advantage unless you use FCP X at the moment, requires Shogun Inferno).
    Phenomenal/cinematic looking footage:
    https://vimeo.com/320986897
    https://vimeo.com/257434812
    Reliablity: Panasonic knows what it's doing.

    In the end, as someone else mentioned, this is all subjective, and since cameras are tools, what you get out of them depends heavily on the skills of the operator who is yielding them. Try them both and then decide.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBnCXRgjCUs (to my eye, the EVA1 footage looks best). Based on all of this, you know which one I would buy :-)
    Last edited by Carlos13; 07-18-2019 at 06:45 PM.
    Carlos Garcia-Diaz
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    #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos13 View Post
    Sometimes, the fanatic, cult-like devotion of the user base of some companies is actually a negative for me, since there is very little unbiased/critical thinking going on (I'm thinking about BM & Red). For example, I know of BM users that received multiple defective cameras (if you read BM's forums long enough you pick up on this https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com) and are still devoted BM users. Which leads me to my point: BM is doing a lot of things that are great, but generally, their Quality Control is like playing Russian roulette: am I going to get a fully functional camera, or am I going to get a unit that: randomly shuts off, drops frames, loses footage..... Step right up and find out. So if you asked me which company I would trust more to produce cameras that work properly on professional jobs, I'd pick Panasonic by a mile over BM. So if dependability and realibility are important factors to consider (they should be), keep that in mind. And that is one of the reasons why I have mostly used Sony and Panasonic cameras (not saying they're 100% reliable, nothing is, but they've been close).

    BM positives:
    Da Vinci Resolve included (not a positive unless you use it).
    Color Science is really good (subjective, but I really like it). I love the look their cameras produce (the 2.5K cinema camera is probably their best camera in that regard, IMO: https://vimeo.com/86581300
    Price: very competitive, but a camera that is priced at $6K is not worth that much if it doesn't work properly, imo. A lot of BM users are perfectly willing to overlook/downplay this.

    Negative:
    QC issues: FPN issues. Low light issues..... Experience may vary... Etc.

    EVA1: Positives
    Close to the price range of the UMP G2 ($6.4K, no Resolve).
    Hither resolution (5.7K vs. 4.6K).
    ProRes Raw (not an advantage unless you use FCP X at the moment, requires Shogun Inferno).
    Phenomenal/cinematic looking footage:
    https://vimeo.com/320986897
    https://vimeo.com/257434812
    Reliablity: Panasonic knows what it's doing.

    In the end, as someone else mentioned, this is all subjective, and since cameras are tools, what you get out of them depends heavily on the skills of the operator who is yielding them. Try them both and then decide.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBnCXRgjCUs (to my eye, the EVA1 footage looks best). Based on all of this, you know which one I would buy :-)
    Thanks Carlos for all that info. Appreciate it.


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    #14
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    Just to add (and I'm saying this as someone who wouldn't buy either camera although it always seems like I'm defending Blackmagic)...

    If ProRes RAW is a positive on the EVA1 then it's only fair to mention Blackmagic RAW on the UMP, which is of course captured internally.

    Also, if you're considering the UMP G2 (are you?), there's 4.6K up to 120 frames per second vs. EVA1's 4K/60p (internally). This is practically unheard of besides with REDs or a random rare small sensor camera like the E2. As we know, you'd have to use additional hardware with other systems (like the EVA1).

    Honorable mentions for the UMP:

    - Various flavors of ProRes

    - Various shooting resolutions (I don't know what the EVA1 offers):

    4608 x 2592
    4608 x 1920 (4.6K 2.40:1)
    4096 x 2304 (4K 16:9)
    4096 x 2160 (4K DCI)
    3840 x 2160 (Ultra HD)
    3072 x 2560 (3K Anamorphic)
    2048 x 1152 (2K 16:9)
    2048 x 1080 (2K DCI)
    1920 x 1080

    Side note: The effective sensor resolution in the EVA1 may be 5.7K, but you'd of course need an Atomos to take advantage. Internally, DCI 4K is its maximum vs. 4.6K on the UMP. The Panasonic still offers better super-sampling, but just saying...need to consider what you can actually capture internally.

    ___

    Then you have the little things that you would only know from using both cameras for many weeks or months like how you feel about all of the buttons on the body.

    Or the things you may not really think about right now that are super important like the better BUILT-IN screen on the UMP (although the regular UM 4.6K had an even better screen).

    Or the easier-to-use much smaller batteries on the EVA1 (and you don't need a battery plate).

    How about slow-motion? 300fps 1080p on the BM vs. the EVA1's 240fps? And then you have to consider how much of a crop/window is in each camera. Sometimes it varies as you increase the speed.

    Menu. Blackmagic. Oh, god - Blackmagic 1000%.

    Low-light. EVA1. Dual-Native ISO. No doubt.

    ___

    I could break it down further, but the point is that there's a lot more to consider than post #12 or this post (or any for that matter).

    ___

    Sometimes just the way a camera feels in your hands while using it will make you seriously consider purchasing it.


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    #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorBro View Post
    I could break it down further, but the point is that there's a lot more to consider than post #12 or this post (or any for that matter).
    All good points. Didn't mean to imply that I covered everything. In the end, the best way to judge is to try both and decide. Not to belabor this, though, it is my opinion that reliability is a huge question mark on the BM side--I would not rely on a BM camera if reliability in situations where reliability crucial (https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/v...it=FPN#p519458). Everything else you stated are valid points to consider.

    Please let us know your decision, and when you get the camera, how it goes :-)
    Carlos Garcia-Diaz
    TV Production/Studio Manager


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    #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos13 View Post
    All good points. Didn't mean to imply that I covered everything. In the end, the best way to judge is to try both and decide. Not to belabor this, though, it is my opinion that reliability is a huge question mark on the BM side--I would not rely on a BM camera if reliability in situations where reliability crucial (https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/v...it=FPN#p519458). Everything else you stated are valid points to consider.
    I would tend to agree with Carlos, but I'm a happy EVA1 owner.
    I had looked at the UMP cameras at a couple of trade shows and actually liked the images that were coming out of them. But I wouldn't say that they were automatically more cinematic than those from the EVA1.
    After spending more than a year with the EVA1 as my primary camera, there have been a lot of times when its size and versatility have really paid off. The main thing I love about the EVA1 is the way the colors look/ combined with the fact that I have excellent control of them in-camera when I need to match to another camera - such as an Amira. One of the big features for me has been the dual ISO and the fact that it's not uncommon for me to need to shoot at 4000 or 5000 ISO -- even when using relatively fast lenses. Latest firmware has given me more HFR options as well, such as full-sensor 120p in HD, and the ROP wifi capability has been rock solid - something I've used far more than I ever thought I would. Also little touches like the image expand (1.4x) function that allows me to window down from 5.7k to 4k (turning my 18-35 into an effective 25-49, etc..) with a single button press. Or the ability to save numerous white balances as well as multiple precision (0.1) shutter speeds to accommodate offspeed light/screen sources. Or even the way I can separately adjust my SDI or HDMI outputs to mirror the viewfinder.
    You also need to look at your workflow (and client needs) to figure out how to best meet your needs. Most of my clients want 709 - they don't have the time, patience or skill for RAW. (One of them, after their first shoot with a RED camera, informed me that they NEVER wanted to deal with that camera again. So great-looking 709 was a real priority for me.)
    I also get nervous about gear reliability (and always bring something that will work as a backup.) Reading some of the BMD questions/issues that get posted in the forums got me nervous -- plus seeing a shout-out at the end of a low budget horror film - thanking the Ursa for the fixed pattern noise. So even though I may have liked what I saw at the trade shows (and like the idea of recording straight to an SSD or T5 drive), I felt that I'd be too nervous bringing an Ursa on set.
    And as I said, I've been very happy with my EVA1 - and my clients have been as well...


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    Quote Originally Posted by OnSet View Post
    Most of my clients want 709 - they don't have the time, patience or skill for RAW. (One of them, after their first shoot with a RED camera, informed me that they NEVER wanted to deal with that camera again. So great-looking 709 was a real priority for me.)
    Any modern RED camera can have Rec. 709 with one click of a button.

    Just like the Blackmagics.

    ___

    As far as reliability, there is absolutely no doubt about the concern, but there is also so much user error and misinformation out there that it's impossible for anyone interested in the system to clearly understand what's being said.


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    #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnSet View Post
    I had looked at the UMP cameras at a couple of trade shows and actually liked the images that were coming out of them. But I wouldn't say that they were automatically more cinematic than those from the EVA1.
    Agreed, although I actually do like BM's color science, but there are just to many potential issues (QC & fixed pattern noise being major ones, there are many threads/discussions on this). Some of this is not user error. The UMP does have FPN issues. Some people have received units that are clearly defective (e.g., randomly shutting off or not turning on). I thought about buying a G2 when it was announced, but based on BM's camera release history, I know better then to buy a camera from them (this is jus my opinion). The G2 does tick off a lot of boxes and has been a great camera for a lot of people that have received good units. So I'm not necessarily telling Jeffery not to buy the UMP because of this, but to exercise due diligence before he makes a purchase.

    And as Onset mentioned, the EVA and Varicams can produce gorgeous footage, and which look you prefer is largely subjective.

    Jeffrey: when are you thinking of buying?
    Last edited by Carlos13; 07-20-2019 at 10:42 AM.
    Carlos Garcia-Diaz
    TV Production/Studio Manager


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    Just a note on the BM power issues:

    With these particular BM cameras, people have to install a battery plate themselves.

    It's extremely straightforward, but if you've never done it before it can be daunting. (I was anxious when I had to install my first one in 2014.)

    Two things may affect power:

    (1) The wires aren't properly tucked into the cove (it is a PITA) and they can be pinched when you screw the plate to the back of the body.
    (2) People don't click the molex connector in securely (QC of the plate could be considered too).

    Also, I've learned that with Blackmagic's V-mount battery plate (the one most people will probably buy), some V-mount batteries don't sit properly and a slight bump could knock the power out.

    ___

    NOW...with all of that said, do I believe that many cameras have had a plate installed perfectly and are using ideal batteries and still have issues? Definitely.

    I've owned over a dozen Blackmagic cameras and have seen it all. I've spoken with Blackmagic about issues before they even had beta testers. About bizarre problems like the big URSA recording a few lines of resolution from the left side of the screen onto the right, or something called "HPN" - horizontal pattern noise (although not sure that's an official term) - that was present on the first batch of UM 4K cameras. (This is different from FPN.)

    The cameras can have issues, and one thing I wholeheartedly agree with is that $6,000 is too much money to gamble if you're not a gambler.

    When certain BM cameras were $3K and $2K and now $1300...you feel better about it (although you of course still want them to work perfectly).


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    Quote Originally Posted by NorBro View Post
    Any modern RED camera can have Rec. 709 with one click of a button.

    Just like the Blackmagics.

    ___

    As far as reliability, there is absolutely no doubt about the concern, but there is also so much user error and misinformation out there that it's impossible for anyone interested in the system to clearly understand what's being said.

    In the case of the RED there were a number of other issues at that time that they didn't like as well - things like setting black balance / boot-up time / fan noise / etc. When a client says 'never again' to a piece of gear I have to take them seriously if I don't want that 'never' to extend to me as well. Most of my clients can be patient - as long as it doesn't take more than 10 seconds to adjust or fix, after which point the camera must be rolling again. That's why the EVA1 QuickSwitch function was an important addition for me.


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