Thread: Motion Cadence

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    Motion Cadence
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    With the release of the latest Blackmagic Ursa Mini Pro G2, I've been hearing a lot people commenting about it's perceived superior "motion cadence" compared to other cameras. I assume that means a more cinematic feel of 24p.
    It's not something that's really been on my radar and I've rarely seen it discussed fully, but I swear I've owned other cameras that I thought handled it better than my current F5.

    Is it something real to you or is it one of those intangible things you might think you notice but can't quite identify? How could it possibly differ between cameras when the settings are identical?

    Or is the discussion rather like audiophiles debating the different sound characteristics of speaker wire...
    Last edited by JCummings; 07-06-2019 at 08:34 AM. Reason: correct camera name
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    It's intangible but I believe in it. Rent a RED and see if it confirms your thoughts.

    And of course it will differ between two cameras because they are completely different machines.

    There's also no BMCC MK2...lol. You're combining BM's first camera with Japanese nomenclature.

    It's the UMP G2 or BMPCC 4K.


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    Quote Originally Posted by NorBro View Post
    It's intangible but I believe in it. Rent a RED and see if it confirms your thoughts.

    And of course it will differ between two cameras because they are completely different machines.

    There's also no BMCC MK2...lol. You're combining BM's first camera with Japanese nomenclature.

    It's the UMP G2 or BMPCC 4K.
    Corrected, thanks.
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    It depends on who you ask. Some people swear they can see it, some people swear that it doesn't exist. Online discussions often become very heated about this topic in particular and words like "magic" and "mojo" start popping up. It can be difficult to remain objective. Here's a previous thread about it: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread...ts-price-range

    For me it's real, but with the caveat that I think there are two visual characteristics in play:

    1) Smooth motion: Does 1/48 at 24fps look oddly staccato, kind of like it was shot at 1/120? This can be a tricky one if you are looking at footage shot by other people because a lot of YouTubers will speed up their shutter to manage exposure rather than carrying around an ND, and then make no mention of it in the video description (which is their prerogative).
    2) Pleasing motion: This one is harder to put a finger on. Sometimes there is no staccato, but the moving image just doesn't look quite right. Some have theorized that it has to do with the sharpness and micro-contrast of the individual frames because using softer lenses or blurring the image slightly in post seems to improve things.

    The litmus test I am always looking for is a shot of a busy city street shot at 1/48 in 24fps. Do the moving pedestrians look pleasing, or does something look off?


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    I remember my 5d2 - as well as the famous slanted fence posts - I could clearly see people in motion having 'saggy' faces.

    Clearly every 24/5p frame is not the same.

    Is this just rolling shutter or more?

    I do believe that compression can do wierd stuff especially the funky compressions (anything but tif, raw, prores)

    Im not sure that at the higher end one could tell one camera to the next.


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    I had some issues around this years ago when I first got an EX-1. A friend hated the camera compared to his HVX200 because he swore the motion was choppy at 24P. Eventually i concluded I could see the issue on both cameras but it stood out more on the EX-1 only because it was much sharper. The only time it was an issue was shooting moves on classic model boats with rigging and lots of detail against a black background and I think that was with an F3. It bothered the hell out of me but the client didn't notice anything at all and was thrilled with the sharp footage. I tried reshooting similar shots at home with different shutters and speeds and a few different cameras and never was able to get rid of what I saw. I eventually just threw up my hands and forgot about it. Have never noticed any issues since then. Beats me what was going on but I am interested if you learn anything. Could have been related to the monitors rather than the camera.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LennyLevy View Post
    I had some issues around this years ago when I first got an EX-1. A friend hated the camera compared to his HVX200 because he swore the motion was choppy at 24P. Eventually i concluded I could see the issue on both cameras but it stood out more on the EX-1 only because it was much sharper. The only time it was an issue was shooting moves on classic model boats with rigging and lots of detail against a black background and I think that was with an F3. It bothered the hell out of me but the client didn't notice anything at all and was thrilled with the sharp footage. I tried reshooting similar shots at home with different shutters and speeds and a few different cameras and never was able to get rid of what I saw. I eventually just threw up my hands and forgot about it. Have never noticed any issues since then. Beats me what was going on but I am interested if you learn anything. Could have been related to the monitors rather than the camera.
    Of course back in the days of the EX1 and F3, many monitors and electronic viewfinders didn't have as many display/resolution options -- and much of what was being shot at 24p might have been output by the camera in such a way that it integrated a 3:2 pulldown into the output. As I recall when shooting in 24p, the F3 would only output to HDMI using a 3:2 pulldown. At the same time, its dual link bnc's would output 4:4:4 at actual 24p for external recording.


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    so what difference would the pulldown make for motion cadence?


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    Pulldown means that you are seeing an irregular frame cadence. First of all, you are watching at 30fps rather than at 24fps. So your sense of visual refresh rate is different.
    Also, the pulldown is how the camera makes 30 frames out of 24 -- which as you recall is irregular, essentially making some of your 24 frames stay visible longer, and others less so. So once you split each of your 24 frames per second into 2 fields each (thus 48 fields/second), every other frame becomes 3 fields rather than 2, thus adding 12 fields. Because of the way this is done, some resulting frames (remember, each frame is 2 fields) end up being a combination of two different frames, while others stay the way they were originally.
    Thus motion displays differently than it would if the monitor is running at 24 instead of 30...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-two_pull_down

    Of course the DVX100B created an alternate kind of pulldown, slightly different motion duplication and no 'combined' frames...


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    I don't think that's what I saw.


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