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    #11
    Member mattmealer's Avatar
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    I should add that this is a purely personal project with no money changing hands and zero expectations from any of the subjects. I have some funds available for personal stuff like this, but as they are limited -- and the location is nearly 1000 miles away from my home -- it's not really feasible to add crew members, even though I would love to be able to. The shoot is taking place in a very small town, so while it's possible that there might be a student or other local willing to work for a very low rate, I can't count on it.

    All that said, I'm trying to tailor the project to fit the limitations I'm working under.

    I'm thinking of the band's performance(s) more as diegetic sound rather than the soundtrack, so to speak, of this film. The rehearsal scenes -- music and incidental conversation -- will function more as b-roll than anything else. The band should sound listenable, but not necessarily 'polished'.

    Current thought, largely based on Rick's suggestion: wire the three musicians with lavs and record in-camera to capture their conversation. Record the two vocals, guitar, and bass (all out of the band's mixer), along with a simple drum mic rig, with something like the Zoom F8 for later mixing by an engineer friend closer to home. Probably also use my H6's built-in mics for stereo room ambience, as suggested.

    Again, the feedback & suggestions are much appreciated!


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    #12
    Member mattmealer's Avatar
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    Double post
    Last edited by mattmealer; 01-22-2019 at 03:37 PM.


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    #13
    Sound Ninja Noiz2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulears View Post
    What do you actually want? Video with general background audio, or a mixed good quality balanced audio track to match the pictures? If you move about in a rehearsal, then the camera audio will change constantly as you go near the sources. If you take a PA then it's going to sound weird with no drums. What you ideally want, but can't do is a proper multitrack. Trouble is, the subject is a band, so people will expect to hear the band. As it's a reunion, then ultra quality may not be necessary - but, how can you work without the drums? Even one overhead in your multitrack or stereo mix would fill in the hole.
    He is running wireless lavs to the camera so perspective will stay constant.

    I would stay away from the PA based on experience, unless I had a chance to actually check it out ahead of time.
    I would still probably stay away from it. It's a rehearsal set up not in the performance space so it's there so they can hear themselves more than anything else. A LOT of those desks don't have direct outs making them near useless for this project, and they almost always are noise magnets. True you will hear the noise through the speakers but then it's part of the "ambience" and you don't get your gear tied into their ground loop hell.

    People keep talking like this is a name band rehearsing in a "real" venue. It's a reunion of a highschool rock band rehearsing in a garage (or something similar). Even if you pull iso tracks there is going to be so much bleed that mixing a decent track out of them might be... challenging.

    So Garage band/ garage documentary! Go with your strength. As a "verite underground documentary" you can go heavy on story and not worry so much about record studio music recordings. You are not going to get the later anyway so spending a lot of time trying to push much beyond the "garage documentary" level is largely a waste of recourses. What you have going for you is great access, so shoot your ass off. You really do not know what the "story" will be till after it's in editorial so shoot everything you can. There will be a story, probably a bunch, that will be your arc for the film. And it's that arc that drives this kind of film. I will plunk down cash to see a great story arc, even about a band that never was a name and nobody ever heard of. I'm not going to drop much change to hear pristine recordings of a band that, well, nobody ever heard of.

    Now I am making a few assumptions based on the OP's posts, IF some band members are world renowned rock stars then the formula changes a bit, and so should your budget.

    And I should point out to the OP that I am a sound professional and have done sound and sound post for many decades so I am not one who would generally say sound is not VERY important. But in this case I think decent, audible, intelligible, sound IS important. Pretty "studio" sound is probably not only not needed but possible a negative. Imagining what this kind of doc. might look and feel like I might well want to "dirty up" and pristine sound you handed me.

    To bad I am now on the far side of the US because this would be a fun thing to drop in on.

    BTW IF for whatever reason you want to do multi track "studio esque" recordings. I would get someone to do the sound and I would use an entirely separate system from the PA. Maybe you pick up the lead vocal from the PA, but I would mic everything else myself.
    Cheers
    SK


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    #14
    Member mattmealer's Avatar
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    Yup, that's is exactly what I'm thinking, Scott. The project is much closer to "A Mighty Wind" than "The Last Waltz", though any comedy will likely be unintentional. This is definitely not a "name" band, and I have no doubt all three members would chuckle at the idea!


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    #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattmealer View Post
    I should add that this is a purely personal project with no money changing hands and zero expectations from any of the subjects. I have some funds available for personal stuff like this, but as they are limited -- and the location is nearly 1000 miles away from my home -- it's not really feasible to add crew members, even though I would love to be able to. The shoot is taking place in a very small town, so while it's possible that there might be a student or other local willing to work for a very low rate, I can't count on it.

    All that said, I'm trying to tailor the project to fit the limitations I'm working under.

    I'm thinking of the band's performance(s) more as diegetic sound rather than the soundtrack, so to speak, of this film. The rehearsal scenes -- music and incidental conversation -- will function more as b-roll than anything else. The band should sound listenable, but not necessarily 'polished'.

    Current thought, largely based on Rick's suggestion: wire the three musicians with lavs and record in-camera to capture their conversation. Record the two vocals, guitar, and bass (all out of the band's mixer), along with a simple drum mic rig, with something like the Zoom F8 for later mixing by an engineer friend closer to home. Probably also use my H6's built-in mics for stereo room ambience, as suggested.

    Again, the feedback & suggestions are much appreciated!
    Slightly puzzled still. Who is running the PA mixing desk: surely someone and, if so, surely someone you can/should liaise with beforehand? Can the band's mixer (if they have one and are not hiring) provide the direct outs/inserts you would require for isos for a Zoom F8? Do you have a Zoom F8 already? Unless you know the mixer is up to the job and you have an F8 already, as I said, I would take the mixer out of the equation with one that can record (Zoom Livetrak - apparently same/similar preamps to the F8) or Soundraft MTK etc. to tablet/laptop: this would be cheaper and simpler. Or, as I also suggested, and as Scott is saying, just forget isos entirely and bung up a well-placed stereo pair: I don't think there is any danger with any option when recording a band plus PA in a garage of getting audio that is too pristine/studio-like!

    Cheers,

    Roland


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    #16
    Member mattmealer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throwback View Post
    Slightly puzzled still. Who is running the PA mixing desk: surely someone and, if so, surely someone you can/should liaise with beforehand? Can the band's mixer (if they have one and are not hiring) provide the direct outs/inserts you would require for isos for a Zoom F8? Do you have a Zoom F8 already? Unless you know the mixer is up to the job and you have an F8 already, as I said, I would take the mixer out of the equation with one that can record (Zoom Livetrak - apparently same/similar preamps to the F8) or Soundraft MTK etc. to tablet/laptop: this would be cheaper and simpler. Or, as I also suggested, and as Scott is saying, just forget isos entirely and bung up a well-placed stereo pair: I don't think there is any danger with any option when recording a band plus PA in a garage of getting audio that is too pristine/studio-like!
    Hi Roland (sorry; I missed your first post in the thread) -- there is no engineer/mixer involved, just myself and the three musicians, one of whom owns the rehearsal space and a small amount of audio gear. The F8 would have to be rented in...however, it seems likely after further thought and conversation with those involved that we will indeed just record the room itself, rather than iso'ing each vocal/instrument for post mixing.


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    #17
    Senior Member Rick R's Avatar
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    "we will indeed just record the room itself, rather than iso'ing each vocal/instrument for post mixing."
    - You can do both with the H6,. If the ISO tracks don't sound good, then don't use them.
    BTW, the F8 does not have suitable on-board mics for anything other than a slate, so you would also need a stereo mic or a stereo pair in that scenario.


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    #18
    Member mattmealer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick R View Post
    "we will indeed just record the room itself, rather than iso'ing each vocal/instrument for post mixing."
    - You can do both with the H6,. If the ISO tracks don't sound good, then don't use them.
    BTW, the F8 does not have suitable on-board mics for anything other than a slate, so you would also need a stereo mic or a stereo pair in that scenario.
    Yes, I did notice that about the F8. And very true re: the H6. If we go that route, I'll have to talk to the band about making the most of those remaining four inputs.


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