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    #21
    Senior Member Run&Gun's Avatar
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    I have yet to run across any "HMI Replacement" LED's that are close to their manufacturer claimed output equivalents(i.e: manufacturer claims it's equivalent to an 800 watt HMI, but in reality it's more like 400-575). I bought two Nila Boxers after NAB on special(almost 50% off) and while they are nice lights, they don't come close to matching the punch of my BronKobold 800's, even though they are represented as 800 equivalents.


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    #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Run&Gun View Post
    I have yet to run across any "HMI Replacement" LED's that are close to their manufacturer claimed output equivalents(i.e: manufacturer claims it's equivalent to an 800 watt HMI, but in reality it's more like 400-575). I bought two Nila Boxers after NAB on special(almost 50% off) and while they are nice lights, they don't come close to matching the punch of my BronKobold 800's, even though they are represented as 800 equivalents.
    The HMI replacement marketing many LED manufacturers use should be illegal. Lighting packages that feature HMIs shouldn't be devalued because an amateur spreads misinformation from their basement while selling milky LUT packs.


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    #23
    Senior Member cpreston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob norton View Post
    The HMI replacement marketing many LED manufacturers use should be illegal. Lighting packages that feature HMIs shouldn't be devalued because an amateur spreads misinformation from their basement while selling milky LUT packs.
    I don't know. It has allowed me to get some really cheap HMI's off of ebay. 800 Jokers and M18's still sell at a proper percentage of their retail value, but everything else can be found for much less. After having tried out a couple of the higher wattage LED "HMI replacements", I decided the only advantage that LED's had is that they cool off quickly. And that is mostly due to the massive annoyance which is built in fan.


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    #24
    Senior Member Run&Gun's Avatar
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    So far with the "HMI Replacement" LED's, the only real advantages are much less heat coming off of the units, so they can be handled more easily(less chance of burning your hands, packed quickly afterwards), instant ON(no strike or warm-up) and they are using less power. The downsides, again: 1) You have to check the photometrics, because most manufacturers grossly overstate individual models equivalencies to real HMI's, 2) Size. The "big" units are physically big and heavy. Some are arguably bigger and heavier than the HMI's they are supposed to equal, but really don't. 3) Holographic lenses.

    I think as the tech and designs continue to advance, we will eventually get our "HMI Replacements", but right now it's not quite there, and I continue to light most of my LS's outdoors with HMI's when dealing with the sun and a lot of light.


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    #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Run&Gun View Post
    So far with the "HMI Replacement" LED's, the only real advantages are much less heat coming off of the units, so they can be handled more easily(less chance of burning your hands, packed quickly afterwards), instant ON(no strike or warm-up) and they are using less power. The downsides, again: 1) You have to check the photometrics, because most manufacturers grossly overstate individual models equivalencies to real HMI's, 2) Size. The "big" units are physically big and heavy. Some are arguably bigger and heavier than the HMI's they are supposed to equal, but really don't. 3) Holographic lenses.

    I think as the tech and designs continue to advance, we will eventually get our "HMI Replacements", but right now it's not quite there, and I continue to light most of my LS's outdoors with HMI's when dealing with the sun and a lot of light.
    I sort of disagree on the heat front - HMIs hardly get hot compared to tungsten lights. It seems like dedo 150s get hotter than M18s! If you're using HMIs 575w and above, the chances are you're also wrapping lots of other stuff, so the time to cool down is unimportant in my opinion. I know you work in fast-paced TV environments so this may be different for you!

    Agreed, if there's no hot re-strike function you can get into trouble. I think the other benefits are dimming (HMI dimmers are almost useless) and variable K temp.

    I think it'll be the beginning of the end once very bright LEDs:

    - get smaller and lighter (have you seen an Arri 575w PAR, they're so small!)
    - have better housing (they're no longer essentially a delicate computer on a light stand) for rain, falls, and general abuse
    - rival their competition for hard sources that can be effectively controlled. How many poor LED Fresnel attempts have we seen? To me it seems like it should be its own system. But who am I!?

    Arri probably has something in the works, although I'm sure they've crunched numbers and will milk their HMI sales for as long as possible. Maybe when another product is released they feel is a decent enough threat they'll reveal what they've had in the pipeline for years.


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    Senior Member cpreston's Avatar
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    The old Arri pocket par HMI line is far smaller than their LED line for equivalent output.

    I agree that the primary benefit of LED"s is that they are variable color, but that variable color also results in a larger light source and some of the color fringing and light control problems. I'm also convinced that LED's probably put out as much heat as HMI's, they just have that fan keeping the light cool.


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    #27
    Senior Member abreu-canedo's Avatar
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    Speaking of HMI replacements:
    http://www.luminyscorp.com/index.php/products/softsun/

    So excited about these. Plasma finally replacing 4K HMIs and above!


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    #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Run&Gun View Post
    I think as the tech and designs continue to advance, we will eventually get our "HMI Replacements", but right now it's not quite there, and I continue to light most of my LS's outdoors with HMI's when dealing with the sun and a lot of light.
    Quote Originally Posted by cpreston View Post
    I'm also convinced that LED's probably put out as much heat as HMI's, they just have that fan keeping the light cool.
    And to continue to take this thread off the rails... I agree with both these statements. When I demo'd the Fiilex Q8 - I realized it was just finally time to bite the $ bullet and purchase a joker2 800 instead. Yes - LED's continue to improve on output - but it's always relative to size / weight & that fan...
    Don't get me wrong, I love my Fiilex Matrix for certain jobs - that need a big punch & variable color temp. But when trying to compete with daylight and lighting large areas... it's the 800 that I rely on.


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    #29
    Senior Member Run&Gun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob norton View Post
    I sort of disagree on the heat front - HMIs hardly get hot compared to tungsten lights. It seems like dedo 150s get hotter than M18s! If you're using HMIs 575w and above, the chances are you're also wrapping lots of other stuff, so the time to cool down is unimportant in my opinion. I know you work in fast-paced TV environments so this may be different for you!

    Agreed, if there's no hot re-strike function you can get into trouble. I think the other benefits are dimming (HMI dimmers are almost useless) and variable K temp.

    I think it'll be the beginning of the end once very bright LEDs:

    - get smaller and lighter (have you seen an Arri 575w PAR, they're so small!)
    - have better housing (they're no longer essentially a delicate computer on a light stand) for rain, falls, and general abuse
    - rival their competition for hard sources that can be effectively controlled. How many poor LED Fresnel attempts have we seen? To me it seems like it should be its own system. But who am I!?

    Arri probably has something in the works, although I'm sure they've crunched numbers and will milk their HMI sales for as long as possible. Maybe when another product is released they feel is a decent enough threat they'll reveal what they've had in the pipeline for years.
    If you have to deal with glass lenses on HMI's, they still get very hot. The bodies, not so much.

    Yeah, the dimming on most HMI's isn't a lot. Maybe a stop. It's better than nothing and I'm glad my BK's have it, because I use it a lot, but you're going to have to use other means to slow the light down, if you need more than just a little tweak. Almost all of my LED's are bi or variable color temp, which is one of the HUGE benefits of LED's to me, but most of the "HMI Replacement" units are still daylight only. My Nila Boxers, I believe, are my only single color temp LED's, besides my LP Sola ENG's(and an old original 1x1). The rest are either "bi-color" or RGBW. One thing I do like about the Boxers, though, is that they are just single dedicated units. No separate ballast. It's built into the unit. You just plug in the normal* 3-prong IEC power cord. And overall, they feel like they are built like tanks.

    Speaking of fresnel LED's, I'm waiting on two HIVE 200C's with the fresnel attachments. I have two 100C's with the normal reflector's and barn doors and the mini-source four barrels. Got the mini-barrels, because the normal reflector/barn doors just wouldn't cut well enough and with the mini-barrels, you end up losing a lot punch .

    *the Nila supplied IEC cord is locking, but you could easily use a normal, off-the-shelf cord, if you had to.


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