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    #21
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    I don’t understand the desire for better WB in EI.

    This is a “for post” setting and the first step in post is to balance to the grey card you shot - or in the studio match to the Gretag card you shot

    If u are shooting “baked to go” them you need WB and are not using EI - you are using a setting where WB is already available


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    #22
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    Then ask why you can adjust color with a RED and ARRI when in their log modes. Its one reason those cameras are a step above the Sony's.

    I have a client that would happily use and FS7 if their log mode was quicker to use. They use a RED. With that camera you can adjust your color pretty close and it comes into POST directly with that adjustment. Saves them a lot of time and that apparently matters a great deal to them.

    However the biggest issue is for lighting. If you are shooting under fluorescents with Cine EI you cannot see what the heck is going on with off colors in fluorescents. As a result its very hard to light with gels that compensate or adjust properly. Even worse with mixed lighting and its even a problem if for a creative reason you decide to push the color outside of a standard balance.

    Secondly it leaves the colorist more power over the image than the DP who might want something very specific. If you color your own footage fine - but you are in the minority of working DPs.

    Frankly its just an incredibly dumb move on Sony's part presumably because they thought that's how film works. But i shot film for years and along with everyone else hated working under fluorescents and hated when I wasn't able to volunteer to sit in on a color session as all my work could go to hell in a second.


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    #23
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    Of course some more tools could be useful to certain (mainly flawed) workflows, but I see them in the main as baggage that is not neeeded.

    I can see some colour tools presenting the DP/director a better image on set.

    I have a client that would happily use and FS7 if their log mode was quicker to use.

    I would suggest they are indulging in a flawed workflow.

    What is quicker than
    get grey gard shot,
    slide grey to perfection, or use Click grey
    'apply this node to all shots'
    About 3 clicks.

    However the biggest issue is for lighting. If you are shooting under fluorescents with Cine EI you cannot see what the heck is going on with off colors in fluorescents.

    If you are looking to filter/dial your movie lights to match the ambient lights then you need an RGB WFM. (or a colour meter with full RGB value recording)
    1) get your grey card so it is being hit by an off colour practical/ambient light
    2) note the size of the green spike or some numbers
    3) frame up on your movie light (stopped down so its not clipping)
    4) dial it/filter it until the green spike/numbers match

    Such a complex task is usually done in a prelight where using the A camera is not ideal, best done with a meter, app or cheap DSLR with RGB histogram.

    Secondly it leaves the colorist more power over the image than the DP
    A colourist can ruin the work of any DP - this is a human problem not a technical one (a flawed workflow) - the DP should make arrangements like specifiying use of 'thier' LUT, ideally noted on the clap boarded on the front o

    incredibly dumb move on Sony's part presumably
    My understanding of 'log/EI' is that it is close to a pure recording of the sensor made with the understanding that any processes baked by the camera reduce DR, increase SN ratio and demand processing power from the camera leading to the need for higher compression ratios and lower HFR capabilities.
    One gets EI - 'into the park' by some form of dual circitry before compression. (Blue boost on the sonys and ISO boost on the Varicam)
    Every time sony add to EI they forget what EI actually is.

    EI is like hard shocks in a performance car.. focused on performance.. and often complained about when one uses said race car for driving the mother in law to the mall.
    Last edited by morgan_moore; 09-05-2018 at 11:22 PM.


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    #24
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    I hope no one reads this forum! ..

    I gripped on a major brand product shoot* yesterday.. the DP did not shoot a greycard, or a gretag, and only evaluated the RGB WFM on the rented Sumo when I turned it on and pulled up the scopes to be full frame (showing clear clipping on the hero product) .. a human problem, a work flow problem.

    *major brand product shoots are the situation where you need the correct colour.


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    #25
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    I can see some colour tools presenting the DP/director a better image on set.


    The centre spot luminance % on the F3 was a nice tool

    I great tool to add in firmware/onto the FS7iii would be a centre spot RGB value meter.


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    #26
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    OK I will repeat/change my mind/simplify my answer:

    Things that would make me upgrade:
    1. More DR (making Slog3 look good etc, having extra stops in highlight)
    2. Better color and color separation
    3. Beefier codecs esp. a good 2K 200mbps.
    4. Make ISO/EI work like on the Arri where you decide how many stops above/below middle grey
    5. Three XLR inputs


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    #27
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    The no.4 would be welcome as in; give constant 14 true stops or so of DR and make it flexible by 2 stops or so to each side. Right now you can do a version of what you mention there if you rate the EI. Check out Alisters explanation of rating the EI. But from what I gather, right now, when doing that, we lose DR.


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    #28
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    Most odd. I really dont get this concept that DR is not constant in EI

    You check your scene DR and ETTR (or not as per your choice) - you then use curves in post to put your mid grey value wherever you want it

    There seems a lot of confusion between 'shooting baked' and how to 'make digital images using image data collection on set and organisation of that data in post'.


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    #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by LennyLevy View Post
    Then ask why you can adjust color with a RED and ARRI when in their log modes. Its one reason those cameras are a step above the Sony's.

    I have a client that would happily use and FS7 if their log mode was quicker to use. They use a RED. With that camera you can adjust your color pretty close and it comes into POST directly with that adjustment. Saves them a lot of time and that apparently matters a great deal to them.

    However the biggest issue is for lighting. If you are shooting under fluorescents with Cine EI you cannot see what the heck is going on with off colors in fluorescents. As a result its very hard to light with gels that compensate or adjust properly. Even worse with mixed lighting and its even a problem if for a creative reason you decide to push the color outside of a standard balance.

    Secondly it leaves the colorist more power over the image than the DP who might want something very specific. If you color your own footage fine - but you are in the minority of working DPs.

    Frankly its just an incredibly dumb move on Sony's part presumably because they thought that's how film works. But i shot film for years and along with everyone else hated working under fluorescents and hated when I wasn't able to volunteer to sit in on a color session as all my work could go to hell in a second.
    Maybe a dumb question, but when using custom slog3 white balance is possible. (Or was slog3 not the same as the log in Cine IE, now I am confused again :-) )


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    #30
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    It is not same color space. To me, it is better with cine EI (S-Gamut3.Cine)


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