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    #21
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    It is like what, an extra couple of hundred bucks to get an F4? Actually I think from the top of my head a DR70D is $299, while a F4 has been on sale for $450?

    That is a no brainer decision, it is like say if you could buy a C300mk1 for only a few hundred bucks more than a 5Dmk3, easy choice! (in reality I think a C300mk1 still goes for on ebay what, double the price or more?) Just to give a camera analogy.


    As for the number of batteries, fairly irrelevant when nearly all pro sound operators are using external batteries anyway. Internal batteries are just there as an emergency back up, so a couple of hours or less of recording is plenty overkill. (and the F4 does much much better than that)
    Am a Sound Recordist in New Zealand: http://ironfilm.co.nz/sound/
    Follow my vlog and adventures in sound: https://www.youtube.com/c/SoundSpeeding


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    #22
    Senior Member roxics's Avatar
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    GH4 Easy. I don't know what they go for down under but here in the states the 80D and GH4 are the same price $999 (body) on average.
    But with the GH4 you get 4K, 10Bit clean HDMI output, an EVF, headphone and mic jack, flip out screen, photo capability, a mirrorless mount for pretty much any kind of lenses with the right adapter, anamorphic mode, focus peaking.


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    #23
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    And with the adapter, XLR inputs.


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    #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFilm View Post
    It is like what, an extra couple of hundred bucks to get an F4? Actually I think from the top of my head a DR70D is $299, while a F4 has been on sale for $450?

    That is a no brainer decision, it is like say if you could buy a C300mk1 for only a few hundred bucks more than a 5Dmk3, easy choice! (in reality I think a C300mk1 still goes for on ebay what, double the price or more?) Just to give a camera analogy.
    I've since started reading about the Mix Pre 6 from sound devices....they sound impressive...probably leaning that way for my own needs...but maybe F4...

    for our students though all of that is overkill...

    Tascam DR-40 $305 Australian.

    Tascam DR-70D $349

    Sound Devices MixPre-3 $949

    Zoom F4...$878.00

    Interestingly while looking at the Zoom line I came across this cam....which looks quite interesting!



    Zoom q8

    https://www.videoguys.com.au/Shop/p/...8.html?cat=197

    Anyone seen or used this thing?

    It doesn't really help our photography students....but it certainly is very affordable video with a much better mic input option....

    Would still be good to get some higher spec/interchangeable lens cams...but these could be good supplementary units...

    Edit: Wide angle by the look of it though....so that limits it a lot.,,love the idea of an affordable cam with xlr inputs though...
    Last edited by Mavoz; 08-21-2018 at 09:31 PM.


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    #25
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    Hi All...just reviving this thread as we're about to put in final lease purchase for a bunch of camera gear. Would really value peoples thoughts on our shopping list as we get one shot at this big purchase!

    The idea I have is to buy into the Camera family with a mixture of the mirrorless and 80D.....some with kits lenses but then a few higher end lenses.

    we'll end up with 7 cameras total that allows a class of 25 students a chance to rotate through different camera/lens options. ie. one week a group will explore Macro...Wide Angle...Zoom etc.

    We plan to use these cameras for both video and stills classes. I've also included one drone, one DJI Osmo Pocket. What do people think of this selection? We have a set amount of budget....and I'm just trying to cover a good overall range of useful tools. For the video side we also have a Zoom F4 recorder we managed to sneak into music budget...may also try and sneak in a couple of cheaper audio recorders or just go with the onboard Rode Video Mic Pro Plus options. How does this look for a video/photography starter kit? Thanks for any thoughts!

    VIDEO/PHOTOGRAPHY GEAR FOR STUDENTS (14 to 18 year olds)

    Canon 80D and kit lens. 2
    Canon 80D Body 1
    Tamron SP AF 24-70mm f2.8 Di VC USD 1
    Canon EOS M50 with Kit Lenses 3
    UV Filters 7
    DJI Osmo Pocket Gimble 2019 1
    Audio Recorders/XLR inputs. 2
    Zoom F4 Audio recorder.
    Tamron SP 70-200mm f/2.8 Di VC USD G2 1
    Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM 1
    Fixed 50mm 1.8 portrait lens 1
    Canon EF-S 10-18mm f/4.5-5.6 IS STM 1
    Canon Speedlite 430EX III-RT Flash 1
    ND Filter Suit Canon 1
    SD card - 64 gb 2
    SD cards - 32gb 5
    Tripods (supplement existing tripods) 1
    Rode Interview Microphones 2
    Rode Video Mic Pro Plus 3
    Rode Video Mic Pro Plus Wind sock 1
    Mavic Pro Drone 1
    Rode Lapel Mic to work with existing Wireless 1
    Adaptor for EosM50 1
    Camera Bags 7
    Last edited by Mavoz; 01-23-2019 at 02:03 AM.


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    #26
    Senior Member paulears's Avatar
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    I wish you the very bets of luck. As an ex-college lecturer and sometime school teacher I sympathise with your problem.

    Over the years I kitted out media studies, music and music technology and performing arts. I selected industry capable gear, stuff I really wanted to use myself and would be able to produce excellent results. Our college had a partnership arrangement with a couple of local High Schools and this generated funding for the project. So we had kids in from 14 upwards. In each one of the subjects - media, music and performing arts the critical failure of our projects was in the less able learners. I'd planned so many wonderful things with the kit and discovered the real issue was the weaker kids. The equipment was way, way above the level where they could use it effectively. I'll ignore the more advanced kids - they produced some good work, but even so, only a small percentage of that approached anything like professional standard. We were plagued with stupid stuff. Damage was common, and frequent. Not deliberate damage - but lenses falling off, then put back on crudely, bending pins and warping the bayonets. Occasional broken glass when dropped on concrete. Footage totally unusable because they'd left the cameras on manual and things were either under or over exposed or out of focus start to end. Sessions led by a teacher tended to be OK, but sending them out of the door to get material was a big risk. Despite their sessions on technique - wobbly cam handheld, or tilted horizons on tripods were common. Sound was always awful. The expectation that the kit would be magic and capture good audio with no care common. Our wonderful 4 camera studio soon became a classroom, as we didn't;t have enough staff to make programmes properly. Performing Arts had a pretty sophisticated moving head lighting rig. I still go back and do a few sessions. No moving head lights are now used at all. They all need new lamps with no budget for repairs and maintenance. The media people keep DSLRs for second year (17-18 yr) groups. The schools and first years use cheap handicams that are point and shoot. The Panasonic P2 full size HD camera is NEVER used by anyone bar the teacher. In the recording studios, the AKG 414s are all faulty in the technicians store, and everyone used SM57 and SM58 mics because they can be dropped and hit with drum sticks. Again, the little very nice gear is left for final year students only) The expensive monitors have their speaker cones with holes in, the tweeter domes all pushed in, and clearly drink spills are in the hardware mixers. Most work is done on workstations with dirt cheap headphones replacing the DT100s they had in my time because the DTs cost lots to keep going, and the 5 headphones are disposable. The drum room has a cheap electronic kit not a real one, because once the skins went, there was no money for replacement.

    This is NOT a bad college - just atypical average one. I know this because I was a visiting examiner for quite. while and saw exactly the same things everywhere I went. Everywhere had some expensive kit only given to selective people and ran on cheap disposable equipment. One thing was obvious. In education pre-university, process, not quality is the requirement. Ten handicams and one clever camera is a better investment that five better ones!

    This only applies to state funded schools with a very broad socio-economic student spread. The list above would be typical of the private paid for education centres I visit. Perhaps a sad view of UK schools and colleges? I don't know how Australia differs? Hopefully quite a bit!


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    #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulears View Post
    I wish you the very bets of luck. As an ex-college lecturer and sometime school teacher I sympathise with your problem.

    Over the years I kitted out media studies, music and music technology and performing arts. I selected industry capable gear, stuff I really wanted to use myself and would be able to produce excellent results. Our college had a partnership arrangement with a couple of local High Schools and this generated funding for the project. So we had kids in from 14 upwards. In each one of the subjects - media, music and performing arts the critical failure of our projects was in the less able learners. I'd planned so many wonderful things with the kit and discovered the real issue was the weaker kids. The equipment was way, way above the level where they could use it effectively. I'll ignore the more advanced kids - they produced some good work, but even so, only a small percentage of that approached anything like professional standard. We were plagued with stupid stuff. Damage was common, and frequent. Not deliberate damage - but lenses falling off, then put back on crudely, bending pins and warping the bayonets. Occasional broken glass when dropped on concrete. Footage totally unusable because they'd left the cameras on manual and things were either under or over exposed or out of focus start to end. Sessions led by a teacher tended to be OK, but sending them out of the door to get material was a big risk. Despite their sessions on technique - wobbly cam handheld, or tilted horizons on tripods were common. Sound was always awful. The expectation that the kit would be magic and capture good audio with no care common. Our wonderful 4 camera studio soon became a classroom, as we didn't;t have enough staff to make programmes properly. Performing Arts had a pretty sophisticated moving head lighting rig. I still go back and do a few sessions. No moving head lights are now used at all. They all need new lamps with no budget for repairs and maintenance. The media people keep DSLRs for second year (17-18 yr) groups. The schools and first years use cheap handicams that are point and shoot. The Panasonic P2 full size HD camera is NEVER used by anyone bar the teacher. In the recording studios, the AKG 414s are all faulty in the technicians store, and everyone used SM57 and SM58 mics because they can be dropped and hit with drum sticks. Again, the little very nice gear is left for final year students only) The expensive monitors have their speaker cones with holes in, the tweeter domes all pushed in, and clearly drink spills are in the hardware mixers. Most work is done on workstations with dirt cheap headphones replacing the DT100s they had in my time because the DTs cost lots to keep going, and the 5 headphones are disposable. The drum room has a cheap electronic kit not a real one, because once the skins went, there was no money for replacement.

    This is NOT a bad college - just atypical average one. I know this because I was a visiting examiner for quite. while and saw exactly the same things everywhere I went. Everywhere had some expensive kit only given to selective people and ran on cheap disposable equipment. One thing was obvious. In education pre-university, process, not quality is the requirement. Ten handicams and one clever camera is a better investment that five better ones!

    This only applies to state funded schools with a very broad socio-economic student spread. The list above would be typical of the private paid for education centres I visit. Perhaps a sad view of UK schools and colleges? I don't know how Australia differs? Hopefully quite a bit!

    Thanks Paulears, appreciate all that. I've also found I have a few kids that can pick this stuff up easily...they can cope with things like dual audio etc...can edit and produce quite good videos...but then there are another group that just need to master basics and make quite a few rookie mistakes...and struggle a bit with the 'independent work ethic' required to actually produce quality...

    but then I guess that is my job to teach them!

    I'm figuring I just want to get a collection of cameras that can be a valuable resource for years to come. A few 80D's and some mirrorless Canon M50's seemed a way to allow microphone input but also work for photography classes as well.

    I think the main thing I'm trying to achieve is just get a reasonable kit that can stand the test of time. I've included a couple of better options in there...such as one good quality zoom lens...standard lens...which at the very least is handy when we are filming our musicals, taking photographs for the school etc..(Previously I've been using my own gear!)

    The Drone may well be overkill....(but then some of the kids wanted me to buy a DJI inspire!!)

    I just tried out the 80D with a Shure SM58 plugged in via XLR to 3.5mm adaptor....the quality is not too bad...it has a bit of background hiss...the headphone out is incredibly low...but it at least has meters...and was doing an ok job...while one wouldn't use it in the industry...it is still reasonably clear compared to the shocking audio kids usually record using Ipads and onboard microphones etc!

    I am a bit worried about the fragile nature of the 3.5mm jack...we do little 'Journalist' interviews...so need a way to record half decent audio...anyway thanks for all your thoughts....I could possibly buy less 80D's and stick with the mirror less cameras to save some coin...the way these budgets work...I get one crack at this...and then I am done for 4 years plus!!

    So thanks for thoughts!

    EDIT: We are blessed with pretty good kids...and a strong culture/work ethic....damage is still possible though...managed to drop my own lens the other day...so kids could certainly do it too!!
    Last edited by Mavoz; 01-23-2019 at 04:20 AM.


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    #28
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    One of these should sneak in there...would be nice for a compact & lightweight portable internal recording solution. (And I specifically use the headphone gain on it, which makes monitoring so much better as the volume from the camera is useless).

    https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...r_compact.html

    Lower the Canon's internal gain to "1-click" and have hiss-free audio by using the Beachtek's gain. (And a safety track!)

    ___

    The 50mm f/1.8 should be the STM version as it's a much better lens than the older f/1.8 offerings, including the AF which could be used with DPAF.

    https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...f_1_8_stm.html

    ___

    Why not save money on the kit lenses for the M50 and just use the EF glass with the adapter? Or buy another EF lens? (Which will be compatible with many other cameras in the future if necessary vs. the mirrorless ones.)

    ___

    With the above said, I would actually lose the M50 and its kit lenses, and take that money and invest in a 5D Mark IV (new or used). The 4K is so superior and it's such an excellent camera (both video and stills) that will drop jaws compared to the pixel-binned/line-skipped 80D quality.

    Honestly, the M50 is garbage and a waste of money. The extensive features (extensive for Canon) of the 5D Mark IV are so worth the extra few hundred you may pay.
    (And they both take the same batteries.)

    One other note since audio may be important to you: With the M50 you cannot see your audio levels while recording (unless you're using the phone app). And no DPAF in 4K if it matters.

    ___

    P.S. I was one of the people to recommend the 80D months ago and still 100% behind it as it's an excellent tool for teaching, but the IV's higher quality will be more on par with modern day images they see on TV/cinema if you're considering a 4K camera for that reason.


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    #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulears View Post
    I wish you the very bets of luck. As an ex-college lecturer and sometime school teacher I sympathise with your problem.

    Over the years I kitted out media studies, music and music technology and performing arts. I selected industry capable gear, stuff I really wanted to use myself and would be able to produce excellent results. Our college had a partnership arrangement with a couple of local High Schools and this generated funding for the project. So we had kids in from 14 upwards. In each one of the subjects - media, music and performing arts the critical failure of our projects was in the less able learners. I'd planned so many wonderful things with the kit and discovered the real issue was the weaker kids. The equipment was way, way above the level where they could use it effectively. I'll ignore the more advanced kids - they produced some good work, but even so, only a small percentage of that approached anything like professional standard. We were plagued with stupid stuff. Damage was common, and frequent. Not deliberate damage - but lenses falling off, then put back on crudely, bending pins and warping the bayonets. Occasional broken glass when dropped on concrete. Footage totally unusable because they'd left the cameras on manual and things were either under or over exposed or out of focus start to end. Sessions led by a teacher tended to be OK, but sending them out of the door to get material was a big risk. Despite their sessions on technique - wobbly cam handheld, or tilted horizons on tripods were common. Sound was always awful. The expectation that the kit would be magic and capture good audio with no care common. Our wonderful 4 camera studio soon became a classroom, as we didn't;t have enough staff to make programmes properly. Performing Arts had a pretty sophisticated moving head lighting rig. I still go back and do a few sessions. No moving head lights are now used at all. They all need new lamps with no budget for repairs and maintenance. The media people keep DSLRs for second year (17-18 yr) groups. The schools and first years use cheap handicams that are point and shoot. The Panasonic P2 full size HD camera is NEVER used by anyone bar the teacher. In the recording studios, the AKG 414s are all faulty in the technicians store, and everyone used SM57 and SM58 mics because they can be dropped and hit with drum sticks. Again, the little very nice gear is left for final year students only) The expensive monitors have their speaker cones with holes in, the tweeter domes all pushed in, and clearly drink spills are in the hardware mixers. Most work is done on workstations with dirt cheap headphones replacing the DT100s they had in my time because the DTs cost lots to keep going, and the 5 headphones are disposable. The drum room has a cheap electronic kit not a real one, because once the skins went, there was no money for replacement.

    This is NOT a bad college - just atypical average one. I know this because I was a visiting examiner for quite. while and saw exactly the same things everywhere I went. Everywhere had some expensive kit only given to selective people and ran on cheap disposable equipment. One thing was obvious. In education pre-university, process, not quality is the requirement. Ten handicams and one clever camera is a better investment that five better ones!

    This only applies to state funded schools with a very broad socio-economic student spread. The list above would be typical of the private paid for education centres I visit. Perhaps a sad view of UK schools and colleges? I don't know how Australia differs? Hopefully quite a bit!
    It's very much the same over here, and we are post high school. The number of students who grasp the equipment is in the range of 50%, and grasp might be a stretch for some of them. We use industry standard cameras, the same that the local stations were using for news gathering until they upgraded. Manual everything. A process of fail, discover, correct failure, and repeat to try to get them working with the kind of gear they can find in local employers. Mostly I don't have too many equipment failures from accidents or neglect, but as stuff gets older, and no money surfaces for replacement, it can be harder and harder to keep going.

    I'd really suggest a compact camera for everything, something like a Canon XC10 or XC15. Cinema style is glorious, but the difficulties of working in that style will just confuse more people.


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    #30
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    Thanks so much NorBro for the comments...the 5D Mark IV is no doubt a much better camera, but it also comes down to budget and the practicalities of teaching....ie. here one of those costs us about $3700....we have about 19K total in the budget...and we're trying to just give kids a grounding in basic principles and techniques..and be able to cover a class of up to 25 students. (ie groups of 3 can use 7 cameras and rotate through different learning experiences...macro shots...portraits etc.)

    We will edit at 1080 as it is less resource intensive for both storage and CPU power of our lab computers. It really is about giving kids a chance to explore what things like Aperture and Shutter Speed are....how to record sound...how to frame shots..what can be achieved with different styles of lenses....how to copy files from a camera to a computer and then edit in Premiere Pro...all the basics.

    So my main focus in the shopping list is getting a range of equipment to cover a breadth of experience....

    Really appreciate your suggestions though...thank you so much. Those suggestions for a Beachtek type device is a really good option to consider to get some better audio into the cams. Thank you.


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