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    #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benjobe View Post
    It looks like you'll need to lower your AC to below freezing in order to unlock the full potential of the i9 chip due to thermal throttling. Otherwise, in normal room temperatures, this new model performs slower than a 2017 MBP with an i7 chip. At least when using Premiere Pro. Perhaps Apple is pushing more editors towards FCPX this way?

    https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/17...ro-throttling/
    While this isn't good news, this issue isn't limited to Macs. Intel has a lot of work to do in the area of thermal throttling and it doesn’t look like things are generally much better on the PC side. The Youtube reviewer referenced in the Macrumors article recently posted a video that I have linked below about the new XPS 15 (9570) titled “The Problem Persists”, in which he laments that the Dell suffers from similar thermal throttling issues when kitted with the i9-8950HK. Even Dell's Alienware brand is apparently having issues.

    The problem appears to have to do with architecture of Intel's current processors. According to the NotebookCheck article linked below the "i9-8950HK has the ability to boost one core to 4.8 GHz (+200 MHz) as long as the CPU temperature is below 50C. Multiple cores can be boosted +100 MHz below 50C." Apparently, when doing processor intensive work it's pretty hard to keep 6 cores below 50C. In his Dell video Lee says these thermal issues make it hard to build a notebook that looks like a notebook computer.

    This thermal throttling issue probably helps explain why Apple didn't include a more powerful GPU in this iteration of the MacBook Pro. The GPU also generates heat which would likely result in more CPU throttling.

    This throttling problem is apparently an issue across Intel's product line. Last month at Computex Intel demoed a screaming 28-core system running at 5 GHz. What they didn't reveal at the time was that system was overclocked and required a industrial chiller the size of dorm room refrigerator. It was a little sneaky and Anandtech wasn't happy about Intel not being more forthcoming.

    AMD has Intel on the run, so maybe they feel desperate times call for desperate measures. Hopefully this throttling issue will get better when Intel finally moves to their delayed 10nm process. Even better maybe someone will come up with some brand new cooling tech.

    For me support for 32gigs of RAM, hardware mitigations for Meltdown and Spectre, a better keyboard (hopefully), and other improvement make this model a likely good fit. I'm going to give it through next week to make sure no show stoppers come up, but it still looks like a buy to me.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18PA3WFFuAo

    https://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-....279270.0.html

    http://forum.notebookreview.com/thre...ike-it.816635/

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/12932...-demonstration


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    #62
    Senior Member Thomas Smet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary T View Post
    While this isn't good news, this issue isn't limited to Macs. Intel has a lot of work to do in the area of thermal throttling and it doesn’t look like things are generally much better on the PC side. The Youtube reviewer referenced in the Macrumors article recently posted a video that I have linked below about the new XPS 15 (9570) titled “The Problem Persists”, in which he laments that the Dell suffers from similar thermal throttling issues when kitted with the i9-8950HK. Even Dell's Alienware brand is apparently having issues.

    The problem appears to have to do with architecture of Intel's current processors. According to the NotebookCheck article linked below the "i9-8950HK has the ability to boost one core to 4.8 GHz (+200 MHz) as long as the CPU temperature is below 50C. Multiple cores can be boosted +100 MHz below 50C." Apparently, when doing processor intensive work it's pretty hard to keep 6 cores below 50C. In his Dell video Lee says these thermal issues make it hard to build a notebook that looks like a notebook computer.

    This thermal throttling issue probably helps explain why Apple didn't include a more powerful GPU in this iteration of the MacBook Pro. The GPU also generates heat which would likely result in more CPU throttling.

    This throttling problem is apparently an issue across Intel's product line. Last month at Computex Intel demoed a screaming 28-core system running at 5 GHz. What they didn't reveal at the time was that system was overclocked and required a industrial chiller the size of dorm room refrigerator. It was a little sneaky and Anandtech wasn't happy about Intel not being more forthcoming.

    AMD has Intel on the run, so maybe they feel desperate times call for desperate measures. Hopefully this throttling issue will get better when Intel finally moves to their delayed 10nm process. Even better maybe someone will come up with some brand new cooling tech.

    For me support for 32gigs of RAM, hardware mitigations for Meltdown and Spectre, a better keyboard (hopefully), and other improvement make this model a likely good fit. I'm going to give it through next week to make sure no show stoppers come up, but it still looks like a buy to me.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18PA3WFFuAo

    https://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-....279270.0.html

    http://forum.notebookreview.com/thre...ike-it.816635/

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/12932...-demonstration
    This is the reality of trying to cram so much power in a tiny box and part of the reason why Apple tends to keep their specs more modest. I'm sure Apple felt the pressure to have a significant update to the MBP as well and had to go with whatever Intel had at the time. Not Apples fault at all but they are slaves to Intel right now and can't do squat until Intel acts. The only alternative would be to make the MBP much larger to provide better cooling. Not sure that made sense for Apple either. So really they are backed into a corner.

    I wonder how the 13" guard core i7 fares. CPU wise its as fast as the top previous 15". GPU is garbage but the top 13" has 4 TB3 ports and gets one heck of a boost from a eGPU. They are kind of a waste of money when you factor in it is only $100 cheaper than the base 2.2Ghz 6 core 15" but if it never overheats and one values GPU processing more than CPU processing its not a bad way to go.

    Would the base 2.2 Ghz base 15" have the same issue? Might not be such a bad thing to sacrifice a little bit of CPU power to make sure all 6 pop those cores can keep running. The Geekbench multi-threaded score for the 2.2Ghz wasn't that much slower anyway. What about the 2.6Ghz?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Smet View Post
    This is the reality of trying to cram so much power in a tiny box and part of the reason why Apple tends to keep their specs more modest. I'm sure Apple felt the pressure to have a significant update to the MBP as well and had to go with whatever Intel had at the time. Not Apples fault at all but they are slaves to Intel right now and can't do squat until Intel acts. The only alternative would be to make the MBP much larger to provide better cooling. Not sure that made sense for Apple either. So really they are backed into a corner.

    I wonder how the 13" guard core i7 fares. CPU wise its as fast as the top previous 15". GPU is garbage but the top 13" has 4 TB3 ports and gets one heck of a boost from a eGPU. They are kind of a waste of money when you factor in it is only $100 cheaper than the base 2.2Ghz 6 core 15" but if it never overheats and one values GPU processing more than CPU processing its not a bad way to go.

    Would the base 2.2 Ghz base 15" have the same issue? Might not be such a bad thing to sacrifice a little bit of CPU power to make sure all 6 pop those cores can keep running. The Geekbench multi-threaded score for the 2.2Ghz wasn't that much slower anyway. What about the 2.6Ghz?
    I'm wondering the same thing about the entry level model. Apple will allow you to upgrade that model's GPU to the Radeon Pro 560X so it might be the sweet spot for price/performance. I am also seriously considering getting a laptop cooling pad which will hopefully cut back on the throttling.

    I definitely plan to do quite a bit of testing at my local Apple store.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary T View Post
    While this isn't good news, this issue isn't limited to Macs. Intel has a lot of work to do in the area of thermal throttling and it doesn’t look like things are generally much better on the PC side.
    Thanks for sharing those links. Very interesting to see how some brands deal with thermal throttling.

    In the same video about the Dell XPS 15 the reviewer mentions that some brands don't have thermal throttling, one of them being Razer Blade. Here's a link to that reviewer's video about the new Razer Blade. It looks comparable to the new MBP except with faster RAM, a more powerful GTX 1080 GPU, a more diverse array of ports, and a 17" size screen. Oh, and also the RAM, SSD, and Wifi modules are replaceable/upgradeable by the user (a feature that some consider a real benefit).

    https://youtu.be/9lzvoBCOlJM
    Benjamin Bettenhausen
    Mahalo Video
    www.mahalovideo.com


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    Quote Originally Posted by Benjobe View Post
    Thanks for sharing those links. Very interesting to see how some brands deal with thermal throttling.

    In the same video about the Dell XPS 15 the reviewer mentions that some brands don't have thermal throttling, one of them being Razer Blade. Here's a link to that reviewer's video about the new Razer Blade. It looks comparable to the new MBP except with faster RAM, a more powerful GTX 1080 GPU, a more diverse array of ports, and a 17" size screen. Oh, and also the RAM, SSD, and Wifi modules are replaceable/upgradeable by the user (a feature that some consider a real benefit).

    https://youtu.be/9lzvoBCOlJM

    Yep, I've looked at the Razor and couple of similar models. Earlier in this thread a number of us fantasized about a MacBook Pro in a 17inch chassis with greater expansion, etc. It would noisier, heavier, and larger but I know I would love it.


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    https://forums.macrumors.com/threads...2128104/page-2

    Looks like the base 2.2ghz model may in fact be the more stable model right now. Even the 2.6ghz seems to fluctuate a lot. Perhaps that will change in the future when Mohave is released.


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    The BMD unit is really quiet. This reviewer didn't even hear it come on!

    it also appears to be the only eGPU that will output to a Thunderbolt monitor which seems like it could be a pretty big advantage for some.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHnh-yvvncY

    https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8340341
    Last edited by Gary T; 07-18-2018 at 07:46 PM.


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    Yes all these new Intel 8th gen chips run hot even with their 14nm architecture. I've just put together another desktop box running an i7 8700k with a 1080Ti card and at stock 3.7GHz it was running very hot. Programs like Handbrake, Vidcoder and Blender are so efficiently written that they can drive all cores to the max and the temps were hovering around 98-100 degrees. Obviously not so good for long term CPU life. I decided that the only way to cool the thing down was to "delid" the CPU and use Thermal Grizzly Liquid Metal in place of the original thermal paste used between the CPU die and the lid. This immediately knocked off 23 degrees C straight away. Swapped out the CPU cooler for a high capacity air cooler a Noctua NH-D15 which from experience gives as good if not a better cooling experience than liquid cooling. Also no chance of leaks. The case is also running five fans to aid the cooling. After a fair bit of experimentation I have now been able to OC the 8700k to a very stable 5GHz. Now rendering 120 minute x.264s from Handbrake or Vidcoder at 5GHz with 98-100 CPU activity and the temps now don't go over a max of 79-82 degrees C. With these temps there is no thermal or power throttling. That's rendering 1080p at an average of 205 frames per second.

    I describe the above because I am thinking that if you are going to be running 6 and 10 core 8th gen Intel CPUs in a laptop I can see no way in the world in that sort of physical environment you are going to get the max out of even a six core at stock speeds. In a tower case they run hot with three fans. In a laptop? To me that's crazy. What are laptop manufactures thinking? Apple the Dells, HPs etc are crazy if they think these CPUs can be used efficiently for heavy work in such a closed environment as a laptop. Fine if you doing word docs etc but for 4k editing? Nah! is what I am thinking.

    Chris Young


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary T View Post
    The BMD unit is really quiet. This reviewer didn't even hear it come on!

    it also appears to be the only eGPU that will output to a Thunderbolt monitor which seems like it could be a pretty big advantage for some.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHnh-yvvncY

    https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8340341
    Good to know the BMD is virtually quiet. That really matters and the support for 5k displays is also very nice for those that need it. I personally am ok with using a pair of 4k monitors so the lack of 5k support isn't that huge of a deal for me. The noise aspect is rather important however but that unit is huge and like Max points out will be outdated in a few years. Well not any more outdated than any built in GPU but it will definitely show its age and have virtually no resell value.

    At the end of the day however a graphics card in an enclosure suffers the same outdated fate so it only really matters for those that nitpick over reusing an enclosure for a few hundred bucks. Some apple users don't stress out about those kind of small savings and may actually prefer to just get a new unit every couple of years. Thats kind of how I feel about computers these days. I would rather just sell them and buy a new system. Buying a $3000 computer and selling it for $2000 to buy a new computer for $3000 isn't all that far off from upgrading components in a computer. Same thing with a ready made eGPU. Buy it for $700, sell it for $400 and buy a new one for $700 isn't all that far off from just buying just the graphics card each time. Or just keep the darn thing and hook up a second eGPU. The MBP can use up to four eGPUs and well built software can and will take advantage of all four. When we get TB4 we may even be able to handle more eGPUs.


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    Quote Originally Posted by cyvideo View Post
    Yes all these new Intel 8th gen chips run hot even with their 14nm architecture. I've just put together another desktop box running an i7 8700k with a 1080Ti card and at stock 3.7GHz it was running very hot. Programs like Handbrake, Vidcoder and Blender are so efficiently written that they can drive all cores to the max and the temps were hovering around 98-100 degrees. Obviously not so good for long term CPU life. I decided that the only way to cool the thing down was to "delid" the CPU and use Thermal Grizzly Liquid Metal in place of the original thermal paste used between the CPU die and the lid. This immediately knocked off 23 degrees C straight away. Swapped out the CPU cooler for a high capacity air cooler a Noctua NH-D15 which from experience gives as good if not a better cooling experience than liquid cooling. Also no chance of leaks. The case is also running five fans to aid the cooling. After a fair bit of experimentation I have now been able to OC the 8700k to a very stable 5GHz. Now rendering 120 minute x.264s from Handbrake or Vidcoder at 5GHz with 98-100 CPU activity and the temps now don't go over a max of 79-82 degrees C. With these temps there is no thermal or power throttling. That's rendering 1080p at an average of 205 frames per second.

    I describe the above because I am thinking that if you are going to be running 6 and 10 core 8th gen Intel CPUs in a laptop I can see no way in the world in that sort of physical environment you are going to get the max out of even a six core at stock speeds. In a tower case they run hot with three fans. In a laptop? To me that's crazy. What are laptop manufactures thinking? Apple the Dells, HPs etc are crazy if they think these CPUs can be used efficiently for heavy work in such a closed environment as a laptop. Fine if you doing word docs etc but for 4k editing? Nah! is what I am thinking.

    Chris Young
    That's my configuration too, i7 8700k 3.70 Ghz 1080Ti tower, Bios reports 50C (122F) with nothing but this internet browsing session underway. Fan is not revved up. It will spin up when getting computational with Resolve or rendering. There is a turbo setting in there, not enabled, no plans to use it, CPU thermal throttling is enabled. Had no plans to do anything except to maintain free space and case internals vacuumed from time to time. Should I be worried?


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