Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 65
  1. Collapse Details
    #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,063
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by Grug View Post
    I can't say I 'prefer' the F35's colours over the Alexa's. But I do love both immensely. Things just look 'right' out of the box.

    It's a crying shame that Sony weren't able to (or chose not to) port it over to their newer cameras when they moved to CMOS sensors.

    I'm not sure I understand or could isolate a singular characteristic of the camera, outside of the 'image'. The way it handles motion, the colour response and smoothness with which the highlights roll off.
    To be honest I do prefer the F35 colors over my Alexa. I also prefer the F35 motion. The highlights are a toss. Where the Alexa is better over the F35 is overall DR, in anything low light and workflow. The Arri name definitely helps things too. But in the end of the day it's hard to say the Alexa is better than the F35 when considering all. Like you say both are immensely lovely. The Arri is a much easier sell though and I would think makes me more money. But one day I still want to have a F35 too.


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Reply With Quote
     

  2. Collapse Details
    #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,063
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    The F35 has a striped CCD sensor and completely different color filters (instead of a Bayer CMOS sensor). The combination of this specific CCD sensor, color filters, and the fact that a Bayer pattern is not used (no deBayering needed) results in better color separation and the specific look that works so well. The F65 has great color too, and its color filters are on the VENICE, which to my eyes has the best color from Sony yet, + it looks like Sony will use the VENICE filters + color science on future cameras, all the way down to the A7S III level.
    In my opinion the Venice doesn't have as much mojo as the F35, and the F65 never had any. If Sony is using the F65 color filters in the Venice they really did some magic with the rest of the camera. It looks way better than the F65 in every way. But as far as matching or beating the F35 I don't think it's possible with CMOS bayer sensors. Like you say yourself the F35 fantastic image is a combination of many things. CCD is one of them. CMOS will not completely do it. But the Venice is second only to F35 in the history of Sony cameras. Talking looks and mojo.


    Reply With Quote
     

  3. Collapse Details
    #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Beverly Hills, CA
    Posts
    2,071
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by Sttratos View Post
    In my opinion the Venice doesn't have as much mojo as the F35, and the F65 never had any. If Sony is using the F65 color filters in the Venice they really did some magic with the rest of the camera. It looks way better than the F65 in every way. But as far as matching or beating the F35 I don't think it's possible with CMOS bayer sensors. Like you say yourself the F35 fantastic image is a combination of many things. CCD is one of them. CMOS will not completely do it. But the Venice is second only to F35 in the history of Sony cameras. Talking looks and mojo.
    Two examples of great color from the F65: Oblivion and Lucy. What are your favorites for the F35?


    Reply With Quote
     

  4. Collapse Details
    #14
    Senior Member James0b57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    3,902
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    Two examples of great color from the F65: Oblivion and Lucy. What are your favorites for the F35?
    F65 was such a bare look, it paired well with vintage lenses in "Ex Machina". Did well in Oblivion too. I didn't care for Lucy's look. "Annihilation" was another good F65 film. "Cafe Society" and "Wonder Wheel" are pretty bold and unafraid of the digital look, and I quite like them in that sense. The F65 is a pretty neutral image, that can adapt, but getting it there is a whole extra process.

    What surprises me about the F35, and I have heard you all say it for years, but this camera gets something right, as soon as you look through the lens. Makes me feel free to capture images in the moment, and not have to keep thinking about how I will "correct" or develop it in post. That is quite liberating!

    I have an A7s I have just started doing side by sides. There are a couple things I noticed in little I have done, and that is the purity of color channels. Into blow out, it looks like all of the channels clip close to the same time, so there is little or no odd yellow or coloring right before clipping (or at least the color channels desaturate enough in the highlights to look more natural). But also, seeing a few objects of different colors near each other, there is good separation and distinct colors, but in the A7sII footage, there was a weird tint or smearing of the color information. At first glance, the two cameras don't look drastically different, and in that sense the A7 was impressive, but the F35 is without a doubt the superior image. And after using the Scarlet MX, I almost feel there is little difference between Red 4K and F35 HD in sharpness.

    My favorite F35 work is Mac's, but Flowers of war shows off the more analogue feel of the camera. I don't think any of the other cameras would have maintained that feel with the lighting and set design used. I didn't like Reel Steel style, but have to admit it looks amazing. That team did an awesome job!

    I may go watch "Youth in Revolt".

    "Apocalypto" is up there as well, even though that is Genesis.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSw5l5jMnPM
    Last edited by James0b57; 07-07-2018 at 12:37 PM.


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Reply With Quote
     

  5. Collapse Details
    #15
    Senior Member MikalZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Bay Area, CA
    Posts
    175
    Default
    I like best about the F35: color accuracy and separation.
    What I like least: hot pixels!


    Reply With Quote
     

  6. Collapse Details
    #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Beverly Hills, CA
    Posts
    2,071
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by James0b57 View Post
    F65 was such a bare look, it paired well with vintage lenses in "Ex Machina". Did well in Oblivion too. I didn't care for Lucy's look. "Annihilation" was another good F65 film. "Cafe Society" and "Wonder Wheel" are pretty bold and unafraid of the digital look, and I quite like them in that sense. The F65 is a pretty neutral image, that can adapt, but getting it there is a whole extra process.

    What surprises me about the F35, and I have heard you all say it for years, but this camera gets something right, as soon as you look through the lens. Makes me feel free to capture images in the moment, and not have to keep thinking about how I will "correct" or develop it in post. That is quite liberating!

    I have an A7s I have just started doing side by sides. There are a couple things I noticed in little I have done, and that is the purity of color channels. Into blow out, it looks like all of the channels clip close to the same time, so there is little or no odd yellow or coloring right before clipping (or at least the color channels desaturate enough in the highlights to look more natural). But also, seeing a few objects of different colors near each other, there is good separation and distinct colors, but in the A7sII footage, there was a weird tint or smearing of the color information. At first glance, the two cameras don't look drastically different, and in that sense the A7 was impressive, but the F35 is without a doubt the superior image. And after using the Scarlet MX, I almost feel there is little difference between Red 4K and F35 HD in sharpness.

    My favorite F35 work is Mac's, but Flowers of war shows off the more analogue feel of the camera. I don't think any of the other cameras would have maintained that feel with the lighting and set design used. I didn't like Reel Steel style, but have to admit it looks amazing. That team did an awesome job!

    I may go watch "Youth in Revolt".

    "Apocalypto" is up there as well, even though that is Genesis.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSw5l5jMnPM
    Looks like the A camera for Annihilation was Red? https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2798920...ef_=tt_dt_spec
    Red Weapon Dragon, Panavision G Series and Ultra Panatar Lenses
    Sony CineAlta F65, Panavision Primo, G- and T-Series Lenses
    Sony CineAlta PMW-F55, Panavision Primo, G- and T-Series Lenses
    Wonder Wheel trailer and Apocalypto looked pretty good.

    Regarding color separation, Fuji has teamed up with Samsung to make image sensors with better color performance: https://www.cinema5d.com/isocell-plu...image-sensors/

    Regarding Red 4K (Bayer) vs. F35 for detail: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread...-is-the-sensor . The F35 sensor is fully oversampled to produce alias-free HD (a 5760x2160 sensor), whereas the 4K Bayer sensor is undersampled to produce 4K (can only produce 2.7K before aliasing). Even more important, the F35 sensor is averaging 6 pixels into a final output pixel (supersampling) with no interpolation. Not only does this create very clean images, it's also better color because colors aren't interpolated from other colors: e.g. R pixels created from G and B pixels (Bayer grid), and thus no cross talk = more pure colors (can still be some cross talk from color filters to sensor, see Fuji-Samsung link above on how they are trying to improve).


    Reply With Quote
     

  7. Collapse Details
    #17
    Senior Member James0b57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    3,902
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    Looks like the A camera for Annihilation was Red? https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2798920...ef_=tt_dt_spec
    really?

    I would have thought that the director/dp duo would have stuck with the F65 as A cam. Also, at Cinegear, Sony featured "Annihilation" as a Sony feature, and had the DP as a guest to introduce the film. Would be silly if F65 was not A cam.


    Reply With Quote
     

  8. Collapse Details
    #18
    Senior Member James0b57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    3,902
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    Wonder Wheel trailer and Apocalypto looked pretty good.
    Agreed. Vittorio Storaro is so good. So many older cinematographers want their digital work to look like their film work, but Storaro goes full on into digital.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    Regarding color separation, Fuji has teamed up with Samsung to make image sensors with better color performance: https://www.cinema5d.com/isocell-plu...image-sensors/
    This is exciting!

    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    Regarding Red 4K (Bayer) vs. F35 for detail: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread...-is-the-sensor . The F35 sensor is fully oversampled to produce alias-free HD (a 5760x2160 sensor), whereas the 4K Bayer sensor is undersampled to produce 4K (can only produce 2.7K before aliasing). Even more important, the F35 sensor is averaging 6 pixels into a final output pixel (supersampling) with no interpolation. Not only does this create very clean images, it's also better color because colors aren't interpolated from other colors: e.g. R pixels created from G and B pixels (Bayer grid), and thus no cross talk = more pure colors (can still be some cross talk from color filters to sensor, see Fuji-Samsung link above on how they are trying to improve).
    So crazy. Over engineering at the sensor level is awesome. In a weird way, all of the bayer patter 8K cameras are following a similar line of thought, but the emphasis is still too much on resolution as a selling spec. But I have always felt resolution was the beast we had to get out of the way before we could get back to finesse and quality. Glad we are coming back around.


    Reply With Quote
     

  9. Collapse Details
    #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Beverly Hills, CA
    Posts
    2,071
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by James0b57 View Post
    really?

    I would have thought that the director/dp duo would have stuck with the F65 as A cam. Also, at Cinegear, Sony featured "Annihilation" as a Sony feature, and had the DP as a guest to introduce the film. Would be silly if F65 was not A cam.
    They typically list the A camera first, could be a mistake?

    Clarification on the F35 "6 pixels" => 1 pixels. It's really 6 photosites into 1 pixel. Or two RGB stripe-strips first averaged into one then 'stacked' into an RGB pixel (where RGB = just one location). That said, most displays are composed of RGB subpixels, so the F35 photosites are similar to a typical display for playback.

    It will be great to get away from Bayer sensors. Sony was working with InVisage to produce a new Quantum Film sensor. Then Apple bought InVisage: https://petapixel.com/2017/10/30/app...umfilm-report/ . Perhaps Sony has something else (better) up their sleeves.

    Better sensors for color are indeed coming now that we've gotten resolution sufficiently high. AI compression will massively reduce storage as the stored data will be effectively resolution-less. Meaning any resolution can be rendered after compression (really deconstruction). The trade off is high compute requirements (won't be an issue in the future). Example advances for stills (more work for interframe video to come): https://arxiv.org/pdf/1705.05823.pdf


    Reply With Quote
     

  10. Collapse Details
    #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Long Island
    Posts
    6,139
    Default
    'Lucy' has 3 big hitters in its specs...not sure how much is "some scenes", but I wonder if anyone during the meeting(s) brought up anything about color or skintones when discussing the combination of systems, and I wonder why all three cameras were used:

    Lucy.jpg


    Reply With Quote
     

Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •