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    EVA1 5.7K CDNG misunderstanding
    #1
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    Hallo,

    After discovering that the EVA1 cannot in fact record 5.7k CDNG, but a 4K crop mode instead, when using the Atomos. It was quite disconcerting to hear and led to some confusion as I'm sure it has been reported that it could do CDNG. The 5.7k RAW record with the Atomos is only for ProRes RAW.


    'The biggest part of this firmware update is certainly the unlocking of external RAW recording from the EVA1. With the new version 2.0 firmware, the EVA1 is able to output uncompressed RAW via 6G SDI. RAW formats that will be able to be recorded include 5.7K at 1fps to 30fps, 4K at 1fps to 60fps, and 2K at 1fps to 240fps.'


    'uncompressed RAW' suggests CDNG and not ProRes Raw, right?


    'RAW files are too big to fit into the internal SD cards used by the platform, and so what's required is the use of an external recorder connected over 6G SDI for RAW recording in the CDNG RAW format. Taking full advantage of the 5.7K resolution of the Super35mm sensor....'


    They should really specify that it's ProRes RAW not CDNG and there's a huge difference.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18MwdsGtIaM

    The Panasonic representative specifically says that the EVA1 will do 5.7k (Full sensor read) CDNG 12-bit uncompressed RAW.

    Was this a planned feature of the EVA1 but got shelved? Will it come later in an update?

    The option to crop into an image to find a better frame, or just reap the benefits of downsampling to 4k was something that made this camera such an attractive prospect.

    Can anybody shed any light on this? Specifically Mitch or Barry please

    All the best


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    #2
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    I’d bet the 4k CDNG is a limitation of the Atomos recorder, not the camera. Love to see them record the 10 bit Cineon log lossless DNG compressed mode that Slimraw uses. They could possibly have the bandwidth to do that with the Atomos.


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    Note that even your first quote says "RAW formats that will be able to be recorded" -- the operable word being "will" -- with no reference to when...

    Perhaps they should be more clear by just stating what the camera can 'output' - and by not introducing the 'recorded' word into the description since recording is handled by equipment from other companies...

    Also take note of the general date/time descriptions and the qualifiers in the explanation in the video clip - which was of course shot before ProResRaw had been announced. I was actually pleasantly surprised how quickly some of these 'future features' of the camera have been implemented into the firmware!
    Last edited by OnSet; 05-26-2018 at 08:48 AM.


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    Your understanding is entirely backwards and incorrect.

    The EVA1 outputs uncompressed raw exactly as it says.

    Any problems with recording that raw signal are problems with the recorder, and need to be solved by the recorder manufacturer.

    CDNG is a recording format, as is ProRes RAW. The camera doesn't output CDNG or ProRes RAW, it outputs an uncompressed raw signal. The recorder receives that raw signal and then records it into whatever recording format you tell it to.

    CDNG can be either compressed or uncompressed, the format supports both options. ProRes RAW is always compressed.

    It is my understanding that the Atomos cannot record 5.7k CDNG for the same reason it can't record 4k/60 CDNG: the data rate is too high for their single SSD to be able to handle. Perhaps if they introduced compressed CDNG, it might be able to handle it?

    In any case: the camera is doing it's part and it is outputting exactly what they said it is. If there are shortcomings in the recorder's ability to handle that, those shortcomings will have to be addressed by the recorder manufacturer.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry_Green View Post
    Your understanding is entirely backwards and incorrect.

    The EVA1 outputs uncompressed raw exactly as it says.

    Any problems with recording that raw signal are problems with the recorder, and need to be solved by the recorder manufacturer.

    CDNG is a recording format, as is ProRes RAW. The camera doesn't output CDNG or ProRes RAW, it outputs an uncompressed raw signal. The recorder receives that raw signal and then records it into whatever recording format you tell it to.

    CDNG can be either compressed or uncompressed, the format supports both options. ProRes RAW is always compressed.

    It is my understanding that the Atomos cannot record 5.7k CDNG for the same reason it can't record 4k/60 CDNG: the data rate is too high for their single SSD to be able to handle. Perhaps if they introduced compressed CDNG, it might be able to handle it?

    In any case: the camera is doing it's part and it is outputting exactly what they said it is. If there are shortcomings in the recorder's ability to handle that, those shortcomings will have to be addressed by the recorder manufacturer.
    Thanks for the reply, Barry.

    Yeah, I think my terminology is causing confusion and I myself am giving out misinformation, ironically! I meant output when I said record but you are quite right with your corrections.

    Right, that's clear now. So the EVA1 outputs 5.7k Uncompressed RAW but the Atomos Shogun Inferno cannot record the signal in 5.7k CDNG because it cannot process that much data due to its single SSD. Does anybody know if the Oddysey 7Q+ can do 5.7k CDNG with its dual SSD cards?

    Yeah, in that case, it seems the Atomos is the cul-de-sac here. I hope they roll out the ProRes RAW support with the Shogun Inferno before the month's out as they said - I can only seem to get 4k ProRes RAW on it at the moment.

    All the best


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    Quote Originally Posted by OnSet View Post
    Note that even your first quote says "RAW formats that will be able to be recorded" -- the operable word being "will" -- with no reference to when...

    Perhaps they should be more clear by just stating what the camera can 'output' - and by not introducing the 'recorded' word into the description since recording is handled by equipment from other companies...

    Also take note of the general date/time descriptions and the qualifiers in the explanation in the video clip - which was of course shot before ProResRaw had been announced. I was actually pleasantly surprised how quickly some of these 'future features' of the camera have been implemented into the firmware!
    Yes I suppose you have to be weary of what gets thrown around and specific terminology seems crucially important.


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    Currently this is what the Atomos shogun zinferno and Sumo 19 can record from the RAWoutput of the EVA1:

    4K CinemaDNG up to 30p
    2K CinemaDNG up to 120p
    4K ProRes RAW/ProRes RAW HQ up to 60p
    2K ProRes RAW/ProRes RAW HQ up to 240p
    4K/UHD RAW->video ProRes/DNxHR up to 60p
    2K/HD RAW->video ProRes/DNxHD up to 240p

    The Atomos products are supposed to add 5.7K ProRes RAW/ProRes RAW HQ up to 30p shortly.
    The resolution/frame rate limitations on CinemaDNG are due to the data throughput capacity of a SATA bus, which is how the SSD connects to the recorder.

    While in theory the dual SSDs of the Odyssey7Q+ would allow for recording CinemaDNG in all resolutions & frame rates from the EVA1, Convergent Design has not announced support for the camera at this time.


    Panasonic does not lie about our products. We state what the camera can output. We cannot speak for what another company’s product will do. Once another company announces or releases information we are happy to share it as appropriate. In theory there are several devices that could be configured to capture the output from the camera, but so far only Atomos has announced and/or released support for EVA1 RAW.
    Mitch Gross
    Cinema Product Manager
    Panasonic System Solutions Company


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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry_Green View Post
    In any case: the camera is doing it's part and it is outputting exactly what they said it is. If there are shortcomings in the recorder's ability to handle that, those shortcomings will have to be addressed by the recorder manufacturer.
    That is an understanding that is also not true in the perception of the customer at the end of the day: 5.7K raw was promissed, 5.7K raw is not here yet in both the Firmware update for the Shogun not for the Windows users (only FCP-X user can use that). Given the strong business partnership between Atomos and Panasonic, it would have been Sound behaviour to tell the customers in advance what will be delivered really. But they have not done that in such a Detail that it was clear that ProRes Raw will be supported by FCP-X only, for example.

    Fact is that the 5.7K raw is not here for me as Windows user and customer of both companies. And I do not care really that one side states that it is the fault of the other side. I say it again: 5.7K raw has simply not been deliverd to me as Windows customer.

    Given a product cycle of two years maybe, that means that a lot of the promissed value is not here (for me).

    Sorry to say so, but that is not fair and that is how I see that in terms of business ethics.
    Kind regards,

    Wolfgang


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    Panasonic promised 5.7K RAW. The camera spits out 5.7K RAW. Also, Panasonic has nothing to do with ProRes RAW. The camera does not record or output ProRes RAW and was never advertised to. At this level, the customer should be able to understand the information that is put out there and to also ask specific questions if they have any. It's fairly clear to me...

    Your issues/problems are with Atomos, not Panasonic.

    Now with that being said, I will say that I don't necessarily like having some of the top advertised features/selling points of a camera/piece of gear tied-to/at the mercy of a third party manufacturer, which being able to record 5.7K RAW is. But Panasonic has upheld their promises as far as I am concerned.
    Last edited by Run&Gun; 05-30-2018 at 11:20 AM.


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    Well, there's how you see it, and there's how it is. Those aren't necessarily the same things.

    The fact is: the camera outputs 5.7k raw, in variable frame rates, at rates between 1 and 30 frames per second. It outputs 4K raw at rates between 1 and 60. It outputs 2K raw at rates between 1 and 240. It does that today. It does that now. And that is what they promised. And that is what they delivered. So Panasonic has done their part.

    And you are correct -- there is no workflow for a Windows user. And that sucks. And I complained bitterly to them at the time that they released this, because of the Mac-centric nature of the release. And there's not a thing Panasonic can do about it. Panasonic did not invent ProRes raw. Panasonic has nothing to do with ProRes raw. That's an Apple thing and strictly an Apple thing, and Atomos chose to support it. Panasonic can't do anything about it.

    There is something Atomos can do about it. They can implement the 5.7K. They can implement the variable frame rates. They can choose to support an alternate recording codec. They could choose to implement compressed CDNG. As of now, they have not done so. And it is hard to blame Atomos -- seriously, they implemented raw support for FREE for an existing product, it's hard to ask much more of them. But the absolute fact remains: if you want to use raw video, you need a recorder that supports raw video. So it's up to Atomos, or Codex, or Convergent Design, or Sound Devices, or BlackMagic, or some other recorder company to produce a recorder or adapt their recorder to support the raw output that the camera is already delivering.

    If you refuse to use the tools that are available, then ... well, yeah, you end up in the situation you're in. You kind of have a Mohammed and the Mountain situation there. Same as I found myself in. Well, find myself in, because I don't use Macs to edit either, so I can't take advantage of the raw output either.

    Or you can petition Panasonic to make an external raw recorder. I would not hold my breath on that one, but it's possible that they could do it. Of course, it would almost certainly need P2 Express cards, and the creation of a new format, and then however much hassle it would take to get the NLE companies to support their new format, so ... there is no easy solution forward. The most likely path is to petition Atomos to make a Windows-compatible codec (just like they support both ProRes and DNxHD); I would suggest petitioning them for Compressed DNG. DNG files already work on Windows, if they supported compression perhaps they would be able to support the full 5.7k on a single SSD that way. Or BlackMagic... they already have compressed DNG support in their cameras. Maybe they could be convinced to add raw->CDNG support to one of their external recorders.

    It may sound like I have no sympathy for your cause. Instead, understand that I've been down this road before. Early P2 support for Windows absolutely sucked. Apple was the first to integrate native DVCPRO-HD, and editing on a Mac was really the only viable editing path forward. And that was just the fact. So I bought a Mac, and FCP. Hated it, and sold it later, and used a software product called Raylight which added on-the-fly DVCPRO-HD support to Windows computers. And then gradually the Windows editors became able to support DVCPRO-HD and the whole world equalized again.

    So, here we go again. Maybe we should be asking Marcus Van Bavel to make a ProRes RAW version of Raylight. In fact, I just sent him an email asking him to consider it.

    In the meantime, you can be angry about what you perceive as unkept promises, or you can acknowledge the reality in front of you, that's your choice. The camera is doing what Panasonic promised it would do. I understand that you see that as a technicality, because you don't have an end-to-end workflow on your chosen hardware. All I can say from 14 years of experience here is: been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and I'm trying to tell you how it's likely to play out. Those who really want to work with raw today can do so, they just have to be Apple users. And you could choose that path too. Or, there will probably eventually be native Windows support, but who knows when. The recorder manufacturers could solve this issue for you immediately if they felt it was a high enough priority for them; they are the only ones who can solve it end-to-end. And as an alternative, some enterprising software author might be able to provide an appropriate tool that would solve it.
    Last edited by Barry_Green; 05-30-2018 at 11:44 AM.


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