Thread: FS700 in 2018?

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    #21
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    Re: overpriced, my intent was not to point out what's a fair or sustainable value for the makers of such equipment, either. Take accessories for example. If I show any lay person a metal camera mount piece, shoulder mount, physically based stabilizer, etc. and ask them to guess how much they think it cost, their answer would be in line with what I may have imagined over a decade ago... usually 1/3 - 1/4 of what was actually paid.

    Due to low volume sales (relatively speaking) we pay excessive amounts for what, based on materials alone, should be a pretty low bill. I don't care how quality Zacuto's baseplate VCT baseplate is, $600 is outrageous. Even SmallRig prices are insane when you look at the parts alone. Don't hear me wrong, I am not criticizing the set prices, only the market economics. The price is all for the custom design, labor, machiningg, etc. to produce something for a relatively low volume of sales. This is what makes the prices so high.

    All I meant by overpriced was a tongue in cheek way to say that things that should otherwise seem to cost much less always tend to cost much more in video due to market economics.

    Same thing happens in electronics, too. DJI is definitely a value proposition, and their Crystal Sky monitors still manage to outprice an iPad Pro in exchange for a brighter screen and losing everything else. We are used to economies of scale and custom video gear is more akin to ordering custom fab parts, even when dealing with large companies. Panasonic isn't moving 78 million units of the EVA1 per quarter like an iPhone, so the R&D and overhead costs cannot be distributed in the same way.

    And agree with the above post, it's become a weird dichotomy lately. More mass produced equipment at the price point affordable by average consumers has lead to "good enough" results at bargain prices for increasingly capable gear. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the 10-year plan on this is most likely a hollowing out of the video production middle class.

    But that's a tangent, and 10 years is a long time... I just bought a bunch of middle class gear, so, let today be today and tomorrow be tomorrow


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    #22
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    I still use the FS700 with O7Q+ as my A-cam, and I use the A6300 as my B-cam. The two pair very well together, though I'd love an A6500 for the IBIS.

    I haven't even shot RAW CDNG on the FS700 until a couple weeks ago just to test it out. The 10-bit 4:2:2 4K is more than enough for any promotional video gigs I get. I may shoot RAW for passion projects or shorts just so I can have fun with the colour grading.

    I would love to get a newer camera but I just can't justify spending that money when the files I get from the O7Q+ are overkill for most of my gigs. The main reason I'd want to upgrade would be ergonomics and to get a camera with better dynamic range and a colour look/gain look closer to film stock. So basically, an Arri cam. Way out of my price range!


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    #23
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    Re: overpriced

    You all should try to live in Eastern Europe. Our prices are even higher then in UK and salary/invoices are lower, sometimes way lower. So buying new gear for us here is even more dificult.


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    #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrocanX View Post
    New year, new opportunities. It looks like I will have very busy year with new big projects. So, camera geek in my head is happy and I have started wasting my time looking on web for an upgrade. So far I was using FS700 paired with Inferno and a7s on gimbal. My biggest complain about kit are Sony colors and power hungry/heavy FS700+Inferno combo and finally missing option to have nice HD footage (Inferno does not have SS like 7Q+).

    Obvious options are FS7, C200, EVA1, UMP, "maybe used RED?". But basically every one of those expensive babies has worse specs in terms of frame rates and my clients love slomo.
    Add to your list the Kinefinity Terra 4K and 6K (and they might announce something new at the end of the month?!).

    Quote Originally Posted by KrocanX View Post
    So, I am trying to stay logical and keep FS700 for another year and start using Inferno on every shot. As I mentioned I am little bit unhappy with weight and practicality of the kit since Inferno is really power hungry. Question is, is there any way how to power FS700 and Inferno from one battery? I shoot 90% handheld so V-mount is kind of weird for me too.
    If I was you'd I'd seriously consider V mount, but also additionally use an easyrig at the same time to make the long day's shoot easier.


    Quote Originally Posted by kaidumo View Post
    I would love to get a newer camera but I just can't justify spending that money when the files I get from the O7Q+ are overkill for most of my gigs. The main reason I'd want to upgrade would be ergonomics and to get a camera with better dynamic range and a colour look/gain look closer to film stock. So basically, an Arri cam. Way out of my price range!
    Arri Alexa Classics have been selling for sub $10K on eBay for quite a long while now, and the announcement of the Arri Alexa LF should only see their prices drop even lower!
    Last edited by IronFilm; 02-04-2018 at 07:33 AM.
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    #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by filmguy123 View Post
    EVA1, Easyrig MiniMax.

    Your biggest complaints were power and sony colors. And weight, with the Inferno. Few thoughts:

    - EVA1 internal codec negates the need for Interno in many scenarios. When it does not, the EVA1 is so lightweight, adding an inferno will be ok (vs say an FS7, which gets hheeaavvy) for handheld.
    - EVA1 has killer color science. So does the canon. It costs more, and weighs more.
    - EVA1 biggest downside is the bummer LCD. But you're using Inferno. And the LCD is no worse than FS700 per my knowledge. Plus, you can do a Small HD focus if you needed.
    - EasyRig - if you do a lot of handheld, check out the Minimax. I just got one and I'm in love, I'm in love, and I don't care who knows it
    - Power - EVA1 has good power management. And they have new batteries just released which provided d-tap, too.
    - Power - check out the gripper GR-75 batteries if you say v-mount is too much weight. How about a smaller battery with no need for any mounting plates? Pop on some 4" carbon fiber rods from smallrig and boom.

    Oh. And the FS700 with external recorder is still good. You could probably swing another year if needed/wanted. Then again, resale value of FS700 might be less in a year. So... hmm.

    Other thoughts:

    - EVA1 doesn't match A7S color. GH5s?
    - FS7 is heavy. FS5 + Atomos?
    - Sony has a new FF cinema camera coming this year, supposedly, and an A7S III... maybe?!
    - E-mount is cool.

    Good luck sir.
    FS7 is lightweight compared to other cameras in its class and just above, not heavy.
    However.... EVA1 is just ridiculous how lightweight it is!

    Pity the EVA1 didn't do the sensible thing and come in MFT mount so that it is mirrorless too like the FS7/FS5/Venice are with their E mount.

    Yes, a GH5S would be a nice little upgrade from an a7Smk2 and also be a close match with the EVA1.

    FS700 is so very dirt cheap already on the secondhand market that I don't see it dropping heaps more (there isn't heaps more left to go!), and keeping on shooting with the FS700 for another year or two could be the smart move.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrocanX View Post
    I am not in hurry, so I will definetly go to the store or rent some cameras to try them. EVA1 looks very good, but I have a feeling that it is overpriced (it is priced pretty much the same as C200 where do I live).
    EVA1 is a better camera than the C200, so no, I don't see the EVA1 as overpriced at all.

    btw, another camera to consider: secondhand Sony PMW-F5, as I've sometimes seen them sell at FS7 level prices!! :-o
    Last edited by IronFilm; 02-04-2018 at 07:31 AM.
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    #26
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    Like what seems like the case for most people, my main gripes with the FS700 (w/ O7Q+ in my case) is ergonomics. As a mostly one-man-band shooter, it becomes quite unwieldy once the external recorder is on. And because of the lag/latency of the output (not to mention the price), putting it on any sort of shoulder mount would be pointless. For me it's only useful handheld in combination with the very lightweight Sony e-mount lenses (primary 35 & 50mm 1.8)...

    What made me get the FS700 in the first place still is true today though: the versatility.
    Coupled with the aforementioned Sony lenses it's actually quite useable handheld... Face Detection AF works great for shooting live performances (and also when hand held)...
    Couple it with an external recorder and some decent cine glass and it can produce very nice footage... So, very few cameras are as versatile as the FS700...

    My dream camera would be a FS5 mkII with IBIS, the improved AF from A9/A6500 (or better), the codec/recorning formats from FS7, and as an extra bonus a FF sensor (could live without that though).

    As it is now, no camera (that I could realisticly afford) offers enough improvements in image quality to justify a change, especially as it then likely also would mean less versatility. So I see myself using the FS700 Odyssey 7Q+ combo for at least two more years...
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    #27
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    I guess the question of ergonomics depends largely on your own perspective and definition. For me "handheld" includes shoulder mounted, and for that purpose I find the FS700 to be quite good. I like it to be heavy as the inertia helps remove micro-jitters that can be present if you're shooting bare bones. I also use a viewfinder so don't require the Shogun monitor for viewing - this means it can be placed towards the back and work as a counter balance, making the ergonomics better.
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    #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltoidjohn View Post
    I guess the question of ergonomics depends largely on your own perspective and definition. For me "handheld" includes shoulder mounted, and for that purpose I find the FS700 to be quite good. I like it to be heavy as the inertia helps remove micro-jitters that can be present if you're shooting bare bones. I also use a viewfinder so don't require the Shogun monitor for viewing - this means it can be placed towards the back and work as a counter balance, making the ergonomics better.
    For me handheld is different from shoulder mount... but that's semantics... what I wonder is how you deal with the lag/latency the FS700 has on all outputs? For me, being a musician, filming mostly music related things, having a viewfinder/monitor that is behind the beat drives me crazy to the point of it being largely useless.

    As someone who really really hates the micro shakes of handheld DSLR footage, I also appreciate that the FS700 has some weight to it... And using the lightweight Sony lenses, the FS700 can produce some really smooth handheld footage... But with the 7Q, it starts getting too heavy, or more unwieldy, maybe.

    I have considered shoulder mount, but since it costs a fortune to buy the things you need for that and then have to live with the latency has made that a non-option for me. I also find that shoulder height very rarely is where I want to have the camera...

    Been considering one of these:
    https://www.proaim.com/camtree-shoul...pport-rod.html
    But would like to attache it to the camera to have it in front of me, not on the shoulder... But would then wanna be able to lower it to just above waist height (and also head/shoulder height), but think the rod's to long for that... has anyone used one of those?
    Sony NEX-FS700R | A7S | Odyssey 7Q+ | Atomos Ninja V
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    #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmitrizigany View Post
    Fwhat I wonder is how you deal with the lag/latency the FS700 has on all outputs? For me, being a musician, filming mostly music related things, having a viewfinder/monitor that is behind the beat drives me crazy to the point of it being largely useless.
    I really find the lag annoying as well, but isn't this an issue with most cameras? I did however find that there are big differences between EVF's. The lag in FS700 is something like 2-3 frames that's due to how Sony deals with the signal. For example the Odyssey 7Q+ doesn't add any additional lag to the image but depending on the EVF you might have a total lag of 5-6 frames which indeed makes it unusable.
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    #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmitrizigany View Post
    what I wonder is how you deal with the lag/latency the FS700 has on all outputs? For me, being a musician, filming mostly music related things, having a viewfinder/monitor that is behind the beat drives me crazy to the point of it being largely useless.
    I've got the Kinotehnic which I chose specifically because it has the least lag of any of the HDMI viewfinders. Most of the time it goes totally unnoticed - even when shooting very fast moving subjects like a surfer filling the frame at 1000mm.
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