Thread: F3 and 7Q

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    #11
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    I will PM you the files. They are ProRes.


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    #12
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    Dear Chris,

    The Odyssey7Q and Odyssey7Q+ will accept both HD-SDI 3G (Single Link) or HD-SDI 1.5G (Single Link or Dual Link).

    We fully support the Sony F3, accepting both YCbCr and RGB 4:4:4.

    I hope this helps.

    Respectfully,


    Dan Keaton
    Convergent Design


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    #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by balazer View Post
    I have two tests I can share. Same subject, different lighting. I did exposure and white balance correction in Logarist, and tried my best to match between cameras and between modes. You can middle-click these images to open them full size in new tabs.

    Test2:

    Sony F3 Cine1/Standard:



    Sony F3 S-Log/S-Gamut:




    Test3:

    Sony a7S Cine1/Still:



    Sony F3 Cine1/Standard:



    Sony F3 S-Log/Standard:



    Sony F3 S-Log/S-Gamut:




    I tested all of the other color matrix settings too, and concluded that Standard had the overall most pleasing colors, and was truest to the scene. Note that Cine1/Standard is nearly identical to S-Log/Standard when the two respective gamma curves are properly linearized in post. The S-Log/S-Gamut shots (by which I mean "S-Log" in the Dual Link & Gamma Select menu) were difficult to correct and get looking as good as they do, and still they don't really look right to me. I processed them assuming they are in the S-Log/S-Gamut color space according to Sony's specification, but I think the images are not true to that color space. I think the problem is more than just having the wrong gamut. I'm not sure what the problem is, but I quickly gave up on the F3's S-Log/S-Gamut since Standard does a pretty good job. I threw in an a7S comparison with my favorite picture profile settings for that camera. You can see it's a pretty close match for the F3 Standard matrix. I give the F3 a slight edge over the a7S in this test, but based on some other tests I think the a7S has better color overall. My quest for better color continues.
    Damn, this camera still looks good. I like the first one the best. However, I am quite sure I know where your issue is coming from. It's Logarist.
    From their site:
    The ACES gamut is very wide, and includes every color. The Logarist gamut is somewhat smaller, optimized to minimize hue shifts during contrast adjustment.
    It's the smaller gamut that is in play.
    Personally, I think you should throw all these LUT programs away. Just correct from your base image using the scopes in Resolve or another application. No LUT is ever going to give you more than you can correct by hand. They are only there to increase speed and efficiency. The base image of SLOG/RGB 444 is very rich and you could easily achieve what you have in Cine1/Standard with it.


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    #14
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    That's my website. The Logarist gamut is not the problem. I used Logarist on all of those clips. There is something weird about the S-Log output of this camera, and it's the same whether you use Logarist, a Sony LUT, ACES, LUTCalc, Resolve color management, etc. I can give you my test files if you want to try.


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    #15
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    I played around with the S-Log output some more, and it does appear to be a problem with the gamut of the camera's output. It's not S-Gamut, and it's not BT.709 gamut. It's close to the shape of BT.709 gamut, but wider. So if you treat the camera's output as BT.709 gamut and then increase the saturation by a lot in post, you can get colors that are a lot closer to being correct. But I still recommend using video output and a picture profile customized with the Standard color matrix, and not the S-Log output. The Standard matrix has proper color without any correction, and if you do need correction, it's more accurate and easier to apply. Plus the S-Log output is soft, requiring added sharpness in post, and you lose all of the customization that could be applied in a picture profile. The default picture profile settings are extremely sharp, but not in a way that looks artificially sharpened. So the only real benefit of S-Log output is the wider gamut, at the expense of color accuracy, sharpness, and customizability. Keep in mind you can still use S-Log gamma in a picture profile if you want, and it works correctly. Cine1 gamma with the Standard matrix is great too.


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    #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by balazer View Post
    I played around with the S-Log output some more, and it does appear to be a problem with the gamut of the camera's output. It's not S-Gamut, and it's not BT.709 gamut. It's close to the shape of BT.709 gamut, but wider. So if you treat the camera's output as BT.709 gamut and then increase the saturation by a lot in post, you can get colors that are a lot closer to being correct. But I still recommend using video output and a picture profile customized with the Standard color matrix, and not the S-Log output. The Standard matrix has proper color without any correction, and if you do need correction, it's more accurate and easier to apply. Plus the S-Log output is soft, requiring added sharpness in post, and you lose all of the customization that could be applied in a picture profile. The default picture profile settings are extremely sharp, but not in a way that looks artificially sharpened. So the only real benefit of S-Log output is the wider gamut, at the expense of color accuracy, sharpness, and customizability. Keep in mind you can still use S-Log gamma in a picture profile if you want, and it works correctly. Cine1 gamma with the Standard matrix is great too.
    I have two F3's, one with RGB444 in SLOG and the second one without the paid update using only the picture profile method. Both are using the same SGamut setting. There are absolutely no issues when correcting one or the other when trained on the same subject and they fall very similarly in line. The 444 as expected gives slightly more leg room for correction. Frankly I do not understand what issues you are having, but if you are starting out by applying LUT's/presets in any way shape or form, then I am quite sure your issues are there, in the generation of the LUT's or delogging presets. Correcting from scratch is absolutely fine otherwise.
    Last edited by yoclay; 10-07-2017 at 03:30 PM.


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    #17
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    yoclay, you quoted me but you didn't read what I said. The problem was that I had treated the S-Log output as being in S-Gamut. That's not the true gamut. When I treat the output as being in BT.709 gamut and then bump up the saturation in post, the colors are okay.

    4:4:4 has nothing to do with "leg room for correction". That's the chroma sub-sampling; the resolution of the color signal.


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    #18
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    Here's what I got from playing around with the clips:

    This is 'Sgamut' with nothing but my customised SLOG1 LC709A LUT applied, colour, saturation and brightness do look a bit off:



    This is the 'Standard' SLOG clip with nothing but the SLOG1 LC709A LUT applied. It looks pretty normal and neutral to me.



    This is the 'Sgamut' clip, matched as closely as to the 'Standard' clip as I could get in a few minutes. It's mostly just a bunch of different colour corrections to the Red/Green/Blue channels in Lift/Gamma/Gain.



    And here's the 'Sgamut' clip with SLOG1 LC709A, a touch of green, and slightly boosted saturation (about 30 seconds of correction in Davinci), to my eye, it looks the most pleasing of the lot. The asphalt looks right, and the trunks of the trees in shadow seem more natural too. Doesn't have the nuclear Sony greens either (though there's plenty of room to boost the saturation there if you want it):



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