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    #21
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    @ JPNola

    As Lenny already said, "You can always gel the daylight units to tungsten". Takes about 10 seconds with a piece of gaffer tape to hold it in place. And as you suggest, I carry a couple of dimmable daylight LED bulbs for putting into practicals . . . whenever practicial. But even that is very rare and is not my first approach when presented with a mixed situation.

    BTW, I didn't say I never shoot with a tungsten white balance. I said I had no need for bi-color lights. Why? Because they typically cost more to buy, don't have the equivalent output of a daylight only model of the same light, and I find the fake tungsten output to not look very good on faces. I'd rather just have daylight only on all the lights. Several of my lights, inlcluding my Astra Soft, are bi-color because that is the only way they are sold. But when I have the choice, such as with the 4X and 6X, I only want daylight balanced and have never regretted that decision once.

    I'm surprised at how my rejection of tungsten balanced LEDs has really riled a few people up. It's like they are taking it as a personal insult or something. Hey, it's not like I have the power to force you to do what I'm doing. If you want tungsten or bi-color LEDs feel free to use them. They just aren't for me.
    Last edited by Doug Jensen; 09-21-2017 at 03:35 AM.


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    #22
    Senior Member Eric Coughlin's Avatar
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    Doug, what models of LED lights have you used such that you determined the tungsten colors from LEDs look poor? Some LEDs have better tungsten rendition than others, so it might be a bit presumptuous to make a blanket statement about tungsten LEDs unless you've used many different popular and current models. Cineo for example is known for having better color rendition than the competition.


    From B&H's specs page, the Astra 6x Daylight is 6612 lux @ 5.0', costs $1,235.00, and the Astra 6x Bi-color is 6330 lux @ 5.0', costs $1425. So according to that, the Bi-color costs $190 more and is 282 less lux @ 5.0' (about 4% less bright). I'd say that loss of light is pretty negligible, and $190 isn't much to pay for the bi-color feature. Some bi-color LEDs do have a 50% loss of light at tungsten or daylight, but not Litepanels, so you're not really gaining much by going with a daylight only version.

    Even if you don't like how tungsten looks on faces, I personally often use one or two of my Astras as background lights where having bi-color to change the background color can be quite useful. I was on a shoot just a few days ago where we did that, having the key and fill lights at 3200k and the background lights at 5600k to give a blue background. Later on that shoot for another setup we were filming with daylight coming through windows onto the subject's face, so the key and fill had to be 5600k. Director then asked, can we get a blue background on the background lights again? We said we'd need to gel the lights since they couldn't go past 5600k (if they were RGB or such and could go up to say 8000k then we would have been good to go). Director responded unsurprisingly saying, "We don't have enough time for that; let's roll." And that's the crux of the matter, having bi-color and RGB enables you to change colors quickly where you otherwise often would have settled for not even bothering due to time constraints, and thus often results in lighting that is closer to what you and the client want.
    Last edited by Eric Coughlin; 09-21-2017 at 09:05 AM.


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    #23
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    Eric, sounds like you have found the perfect lights that work for you. That's the beauty of today's marketplace, there are solutions that fit the needs of everyone.


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    #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPNola View Post
    Or for anyone taking the course you teach on lighting.
    Yes, absolutely true.

    I'm not a hypocrite. I'm not going to teach people at my workshops techniques or use gear that I wouldn't use myself. Why would I waste time doing that? There are many ways to skin a cat but I have found the methods that work for me, that is what I am passionate about, and that is what I enjoy teaching to other people who want to achieve similar results; with similar gear; with no crew to help; and with only 20-30 minutes to setup. That does not mean there aren't other valid ways of lighting an interview -- but as I said -- those other ways are not for me. It would be stupid to take a class from someone (cooking, photography, writing, painting, actining, music, lighting, etc.) and expect him/her to use tools that he does not use himself or show how to do things he doesn't do himself. That is not why people come to learn from me at my workshops and that is not why clients hire me to shoot for them. I bring my own personal gear to my workshops so I have the tools I actually use on a daily basis, and that gear has not changed very much since I went 100% LED many years ago. I know I don't need bi-color or tungsten lights because I have never needed them up to this point. And besides all that, more and more practical lights that you run into on location are daylight balanced anyway. In case you haven't noticed, 3200K lighting is dying quick, even for non-video purposes.
    Last edited by Doug Jensen; 09-21-2017 at 05:40 PM.


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    #25
    Senior Member JPNola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
    I'm surprised at how my rejection of tungsten balanced LEDs has really riled a few people up. It's like they are taking it as a personal insult or something. Hey, it's not like I have the power to force you to do what I'm doing. If you want tungsten or bi-color LEDs feel free to use them. They just aren't for me.
    I choose to keep tungsten in my repertoire. I don't reject any type of lighting unit out of hand.

    I think it was less that you rejected use of tungsten balanced LEDs and more that you rejected tungsten lighting writ large. And suggested that there are no LED units that do not look "fake" when operating at 3200k. That made it sound as if anyone using tungsten-balanced LEDs is doing lighting that looks "fake". And made it sound as if you think yourself better than anyone using tungsten-balanced LED's. I've seen plenty of tungsten LED's used on feature films and the quality of many tungsten LEDs ( for example, "LiteMat" LEDs ) is in no way problematic or "fake" looking when executed well. The art of lighting is, in itself, "fakery" in that we are often attempting to "fake" natural light or fake practical lighting that would likely exist. Often, lighting a scene or even an interview is, in that sense, the art of deception. We hide lights and attempt to fake-out the viewer into not perceiving a lit scene as being lit.

    The more tools at one's disposal the better, I say. The notion that there are no LED lights that can produce quality light at lower color temps is a bit 2012. The technology has advanced to where that is no longer the case.
    Big sources matter.


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    #26
    Senior Member JPNola's Avatar
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    3200k LED has come a long way. Particularly with the RGB LED lights like the ARRI Skypanels and Kino selects.

    The notion that there is no LED lighting unit that can produce quality light at lower color temps is a bit 2012. Things have advanced. I discourage anyone from thinking that LED lighting units cannot output quality light at lower color temps.

    http://www.arri.com/news/news/skypan...he-lucky-ones/

    http://www.litegear.com/product/litemat/
    Big sources matter.


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    #27
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    Well, I'm sorry if my opinion offends you in some way. I stand by what I have written and how I actually work in the real world. I am not standing in your way of of doing things however you choose -- so do whatever you feel is best. Not once in this thread have I suggested what you should think or how you should work. I'm not stopping you from doing anything you want. And, by the way, there is plenty of lighting equipment and techniques that I will certainly reject out of hand for shooting interviews if someine cares about quality results. But I won't go into details here because it would only lead to more arguing and I don't really care what someone uses one way or another. You can use Lowel Tota lights with umbrellas or Kino-Flo flourescents for all I care about what someone else does. if the shot looks good and can be setup in the allotted time, that is all that matters in the end.
    Last edited by Doug Jensen; 09-21-2017 at 07:44 PM.


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    #28
    Senior Member Eric Coughlin's Avatar
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    Doug, I looked up your equipment list and see you have 15 Litepanel lights, as well as tungsten lights. So, I gather your comments regarding Tungsten lighting quality are mostly related to Litepanels, since you did not answer my question regarding your experience with other models of LED lights. If that is the case, I would suggest you clarify your condemnation of Tungsten LED colors to be within the ones you have worked with, instead of making blanket statements on the matter when there are many manufacturers out there who produce better colors which you may not have experience with. Litepanels has never been known for having the best colors, though their Astra lights are pretty well regarded colorwise among current LEDs.

    I also noted you own Sony cameras and Sony cameras need all the help they can get to get good colors. :P Sort of joking, but not fully; I have heard cases of Sony cameras seeing green spikes in lights which other cameras did not, for example. I have some LEDs which look a bit green to my eye, but when looking at the LCD on my C300 Mark II, the colors looked fine, with no more green being there; at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how a light's color looks, it matters how it looks in the camera and finished product. So, it's possible that could have an effect on how you see Tungsten lights. Though, I know Run&Gun uses the F55 as well and he seems pretty happy with his Astras.

    There was a recent test done with many different LEDs, and if I recall rightly, the first thing they got wrong on the test was using a Red camera, as Red is not known for having the best colors. Of course, ideally a light would work well with all cameras.


    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
    It would be stupid to take a class from someone (cooking, photography, writing, painting, actining, music, lighting, etc.) and expect him/her to use tools that he does not use himself or show how to do things he doesn't do himself.
    Are you saying one needs more than a Bachelor's degree to teach Sex Ed?


    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
    I bring my own personal gear to my workshops so I have the tools I actually use on a daily basis, and that gear has not changed very much since I went 100% LED many years ago. I know I don't need bi-color or tungsten lights because I have never needed them up to this point.
    LED lighting technology has changed a lot in the past few years. I bought my Astras just a year and a half ago and already they've been updated to the 6x's which are 1.5 times as bright. Before that there were the regular Litepanel 1 x 1, with terrible color rendition in comparison, and 25% the brightness of Astras now. Hardly enough light to even get a proper f/stop; fortunately for them they came out around the DLSR revolution when everyone was obsessed with shooting a f/1.2-f/2, generally speaking. I still sometimes have clients who don't like their interviews in focus, unfortunately.

    Now RGB lights are coming out and are going to be the norm before long. As other manufacturers figure out as Litepanels has how to make their bi-color lights not loose so much brightness at the different ends of the spectrum, I suspect Daylight only and Tungsten only LED lights will get phased out, just as Litepanels didn't even bother releasing a Daylight only or Tungsten only Astra Soft light.

    Just because tech was once good enough doesn't mean it remains good enough. A DVX100 may have been good enough for us 10 years ago, but it isn't anymore. Back when I shot with tungsten only hot lights, I always shut windows, practically never had a windowed background, etc., and it was really limiting. Yes, I got the job done, but I now have improved my interviews because I have lights powerful enough to fight daylight since they don't require CTB which looses 1 2/3 stops of light to match daylight. I just used an Astra a few days ago as a key light to shoot some interviews in broad daylight, which I could have never done with a tungsten light. I'd need something like a 3K tungsten to get the same brightness after being CTBed, and then a generator to power that since regular power outlets could not, instead of simply using an Anton Bauer battery on my Astra.

    I still find my LED kit lacking. I'm eyeing the Litepanels Gemini. RGB, wifi ap, about three times as bright as an Astra 6x, almost half the weight of a Skypanel with less cabling/pieces to deal with, etc. The Astras often just aren't bright enough when fighting daylight, or lighting large areas. So, I have to compromise with what I have. But as new tech comes out, I'll gladly take advantage of it so my limitations get lessened.

    I'm also looking forward to RGB Astras. I may skip the 6x and wait for the RGB Astra 6x, which I suspect may be out some time next year, if they get made. But chances are I'll get one or two 6xs before long. I own a lot of cameras so sometimes I double book crews using my equipment, so one or two more Astras will give me two full lighting interview setups so I don't have to rent lights when double booked.



    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Jensen View Post
    Personally, I only need daylight and have no need for the fake tungsten color of an LED. And I think mixing LED Tungsten with real Tungsten is a recipe for crap. I'm all daylight all the time. If I ever want to warm up a light just a little bit I can always throw a bit of CTO on it.
    I've always heard putting a CTO (or CTB) on an LED light is a recipe for bad color unless the CTB is specifically made for that LED to avoid it looking like crap, such as Area 48's phosphor panels. Thus, using bi-color to warm up a light should give better results than CTBing it with a standard gel. I'd be pretty surprised if CTBing a daylight LED resulted in better color rendition than using the bi-color feature to get it to orange. I'm not aware of Litepanels for example selling any CTOs made specifically for their Astra lights.

    I think it was Guy Holt who explained on one of the various forums the science behind the negative color aspects of gelling LEDs with common gels.
    Last edited by Eric Coughlin; 09-22-2017 at 03:01 AM.


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    #29
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    Eric, you're obviously an experienced professional who has already made up their mind about many things and I am not here to convince you otherwise. Carry on.


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    #30
    Senior Member JPNola's Avatar
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    "I'm eyeing the Litepanels Gemini. RGB, wifi ap, about three times as bright as an Astra 6x"

    Is it brighter than the Astra 6x?

    Here are the photometrics from B&H's website:

    Litepanels Gemini 2x1 Bi-Color LED Soft Panel- Daylight 389fc /4317 lux @ 5.0'

    Litepanels Astra 6X Bi-Color LED Panel- Daylight: 588 fc / 6330 lux @ 5.0'


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    Last edited by JPNola; 09-22-2017 at 09:01 AM.
    Big sources matter.


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