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    The Canon C200 Petition
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    https://www.change.org/p/canon-c200-do-it-right

    Canon's new C200 digital cinema camera has great potential, arguably more than the C700 given it's small size.
    But it needs a solid, "high performance" codec in addition to Cinema Raw Light.
    Rumor has it that Canon will, in early 2018, install the same, or similar, codec that's in the C300 Mark1- 8bit/422/50Mbps.
    However, what is needed is a "high level codec" offering, at the very least, the same 10bit/ 422/ high bit rate, intraframe, codec that's in the C300 Mark2 - or a Prores equivalent.
    We are not that interested in buying the C300Mark2, or the C700, but we are very interested in a C200 if it provides us the, long term, creative freedom we need and desire.
    Please "sign" this petition and send a clear message to Canon USA's CEO, Mr. Joe Adachi, so he can pass our request to Canon Japan.


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    Senior Member AndreeOnline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tenbit View Post
    Rumor has it that Canon will, in early 2018, install the same, or similar, codec that's in the C300 Mark1- 8bit/422/50Mbps.
    This is not correct. Canon has said they are developing a new version of the XF-AVC codec. They already have a 10bit, 422 intra frame flavour in the C300 mkII and an 8bit, 422 intra frame flavour in the XC10/15.

    My guess is the C200 will get the 8bit, 422, 305Mbit/s* version from the XC10/15. Canon might need to adjust the codec slightly to be 100% stable (sustained recording) on SD-cards, I don't know. The XC10/15 records to CFast 2.

    The reason Canon hasn't released it yet, is because the update for the C300 mkII isn't ready. OF COURSE they could have included it if they wanted to. It is a business decision on Canon's part.


    *= this is the bitrate for UHD in the XC10. 4k DCI would be slightly higher.
    @andreemarkefors


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    Yes, you may be right- but either way 8 bit is STILL 8 bit ! And of course, nothing worse than the dreaded 8 bit "banding" issues. Just did a shoot with the C300mkii, 12 bit/444..heavenly! Grading was just so nice I would never wish to return to an 8 bit camera. 10 bit/ 422 is a nice, and practical, alternative.


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    Senior Member AndreeOnline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tenbit View Post
    Yes, you may be right- but either way 8 bit is STILL 8 bit ! And of course, nothing worse than the dreaded 8 bit "banding" issues. Just did a shoot with the C300mkii, 12 bit/444..heavenly! Grading was just so nice I would never wish to return to an 8 bit camera. 10 bit/ 422 is a nice, and practical, alternative.
    There should be no banding to worry about if you shoot Canon Log 3 to a modern, high bitrate 8bit 422 codec.

    I totally hear what you're saying about 10bit, 422 intra being a goldie locks version. But Canon DOES have that camera: it's called the C300 mkII. It will get an update soon. Most likely with better fps and Raw Light.

    You won't get better image quality from Canon than what the C200 already offers with its 12bit raw. Storage is pretty cheap and CFast cards are getting there.

    What you're talking about is obviously not a bug or accidental omission, but rather intentional marketing from Canon.
    @andreemarkefors


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    Hi, thank you for the feedback. However, I have been shooting for many years with a variety of 8 bit 422 cameras (I own the C300 mk1) and "banding" has been a consistent problem. I do recall speaking with the chief camera specialist at Canon USA , a highly respected SMPTE member, about this issue and he confirmed that the banding is a result of 8 bit quantization. I believe this is a known and, unfortunately, common problem. The issue also exists regardless of data rate, chroma sub-sampling, gamma/log curve, or codec. Regarding the C300mkii and any future updates, unfortunately Canon has confirmed that the required internal processing power simply doesn't exist and so the C300mkii is not capable of higher frame rates (ie 4K 60p). And, very reasonably, we would have seen higher frame rates by now if it were possible. I have been anticipating lower cost/ more affordable cfast cards, but with Lexar now out of the cfast game, unfortunately, I don't see that happening any time soon. But of course I understand and respect if you would rather not participate in the petition. Again, thank you for your feedback. Cheers


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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreeOnline View Post
    ... My guess is the C200 will get the 8bit, 422, 305Mbit/s* version from the XC10/15. Canon might need to adjust the codec slightly to be 100% stable (sustained recording) on SD-cards, I don't know...
    The V60 rated SD cards are 480 Mbps sustainable by specification, so Canon could deliver 405, had they wanted to. Or be allowed to. But it looks like a combination of a cartel type agreement on top of a need to protect own higher end camera model (C300 MKII, which should be getting replaced shortly by MKIII, as noted).

    Oh and the petition is based on the incorrect understanding of the long released specs. So, booooo....


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    Hi, thanks for your reply. You wrote: "the petition is based on the incorrect understanding of the long released specs" . I was not aware of Canon releasing such specs, can you kindly elaborate. Thanks.


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    I know from internal meetings and conversations I have had in the past with Canon that your petition will be in vain. They know what we want and need and they are giving you what they give you in the C200 as far as codecs. It is definitely a marketing plan. If you want responsiveness from the manufacturer, you should be buying the EVA 1. Panasonic actually does listen directly to consumers and implements many requests straight into their products quickly. Canon doesn't, other than over a period of years, gathering feedback from focus groups. Not saying Canon doesn't give a crap what their customers want, saying that the pipeline and way those requests are implemented is much slower and more deliberate.
    It's a business first and a creative outlet second.
    G.A.S. destroys lives. Stop buying gear that doesn't make you money.


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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreeOnline View Post
    What you're talking about is obviously not a bug or accidental omission, but rather intentional marketing from Canon.
    Correct. Canon's marketing team, unlike [any] other manufacturer I can think of intentionally hobbles their products to manipulate users. This practice frustrates us all. Panasonic on the other hand provides a well thought out set of codecs with the EVA-1 even though the camera is untested at this time. That said Canon has a winning formula, Panasonic does not [re: sales volume, with the exception of the GH5] even though Panasonic have a few great cameras.

    8 bit vs 10 bit XVAC... the only petition Canon will respond to are sales numbers. If we agree the C200 is easily capable of 10 bit XVAC they can easily provide a firmware update in response to competitive pressures. This is actually genius if you think about it. No hardware fix necessary. Just another card to throw down only if necessary. Otherwise Canon will stick with a policy that mandates current broadcast spec cameras be sold above $10k.

    We're all winners here, competitive pressure is incredible. Panasonic announces a vapor-like EVA-1 [apologies, Mitch] and the C200 comes out early. And steals Panasonic's thunder. They were not happy campers at Cinegear.
    Don Platon
    Producer | Cinematographer | Editor
    Phoenix, AZ
    DonPlaton.com
    @donplaton


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    Quote Originally Posted by tenbit View Post
    https://www.change.org/p/canon-c200-do-it-right

    Canon's new C200 digital cinema camera has great potential, arguably more than the C700 given it's small size.
    But it needs a solid, "high performance" codec in addition to Cinema Raw Light.
    Rumor has it that Canon will, in early 2018, install the same, or similar, codec that's in the C300 Mark1- 8bit/422/50Mbps.
    However, what is needed is a "high level codec" offering, at the very least, the same 10bit/ 422/ high bit rate, intraframe, codec that's in the C300 Mark2 - or a Prores equivalent.
    We are not that interested in buying the C300Mark2, or the C700, but we are very interested in a C200 if it provides us the, long term, creative freedom we need and desire.
    Please "sign" this petition and send a clear message to Canon USA's CEO, Mr. Joe Adachi, so he can pass our request to Canon Japan.

    While you're at it, why don't send a petition to RED asking for the Raven to have 8K and built in ND's with an FS7 style shoulder grip and all flavors of Prores for under $5K because we are simply not interested in paying more and deserve it...

    I'd like to have some of what you're smoking!


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