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    #91
    Senior Member Eric Coughlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Run&Gun View Post
    I'm not sure what they pay the audio guys, because they book each crew member seperately, but we make $1600/each to shoot with our C300's, which is actually ~15% below what another client pays.
    What does $1600 come with? Camera, lenses (photo only, or 17-120 too?), and tripod? Lights? Shoulder rig and other stabilization gear?

    I've been doing $1200 for a C300 Mark II with me, still lenses, and tripod. Sometimes I'll add an extra $100 for a Zacuto shoulder rig. $350 for my lighting kit, and $200 for audio, so an interview kit for example comes out to around $1800. Cinema lenses are extra, $400 for the 30-105, $400 for the 15.5-47, and $150-$200 for the 18-80.


    Quote Originally Posted by Run&Gun View Post
    I don't get how some on here seem to get so seemingly upset over the rates that some of us get for our C300's and working with them. And then they call the clients stupid or ignorant for paying that much. Some act like that money is coming out of their own pocket. Or somehow it's morally wrong, because that camera can be rented from an internet rental house for literally peanuts. Hell, y'all should be thanking me and others like me for trying to keep the rates UP across the industry instead of encouraging the decline.
    I actually just had a producer send me a shopping cart from LensRentals for the gear they wanted, and asked if I could match that by bringing my gear and working as a cam op.

    So how would you approach that? Tell the client you're a skilled cameraman with set rates for gear, not a rental house, and if they just want anybody with gear, then they can rent (significantly) cheaper from LensRentals but not get you with it? As in, you're basically up-charging the going rental price because you consider yourself more skilled/experienced then what they'd likely get if they rented from LensRentals and hired a camera op without gear?
    Last edited by Eric Coughlin; Yesterday at 10:19 PM.


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    #92
    Senior Member Michael Thames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob norton View Post
    I can't tell if this is serious Michael?

    It's clearly not only about ease. People rent because they:
    - need a certain camera for a project
    - can't afford a camera
    - don't pay for the rental
    I was just joking around...... kind of.
    Canon C100, C100 mkii, 5D3, Kessler second shooter, Letus Helix Jr. Shark slider, Canon 70-200 2.8 USM II, 70-200 f4 IS, 24-105, 50mm 1.4, 11-18 f4.5. Two Scheops MK4 mics, two Oktava MK-12 with MJE K47H capsules. Aputure 672 lighting kit.


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    #93
    Senior Member Michael Thames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Run&Gun View Post
    Call me crazy, but I preferred it when a camera cost $40K+. Rates were high and they stayed there until the wash of "low-priced" cameras started flooding the market during the last ~3-5 years. Unless you were a bottom feeder, there were no "Can you do this for $500?" jobs or "I can get a camera for $200", because you couldn't!.

    $150 for a $20K camera? Yeah, that's not happening on my watch. I still rent my original C300 out for $600.
    I think of it this way......... it was the best of times, and it was the worse of times. Most teenagers can make better films than were made 50 years ago. I can make a better recording now than most people 50 years ago. It's all due to cheap cameras and recording equipment, FCPX, or ProTools. Everyone's a star.

    $600? Maybe I should open a little video rental house.
    Canon C100, C100 mkii, 5D3, Kessler second shooter, Letus Helix Jr. Shark slider, Canon 70-200 2.8 USM II, 70-200 f4 IS, 24-105, 50mm 1.4, 11-18 f4.5. Two Scheops MK4 mics, two Oktava MK-12 with MJE K47H capsules. Aputure 672 lighting kit.


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    #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Coughlin View Post
    I actually just had a producer send me a shopping cart from LensRentals for the gear they wanted, and asked if I could match that by bringing my gear and working as a cam op.

    So how would you approach that? Tell the client you're a skilled cameraman with set rates for gear, not a rental house, and if they just want anybody with gear, then they can rent (significantly) cheaper from LensRentals but not get you with it? As in, you're basically up-charging the going rental price because you consider yourself more skilled/experienced then what they'd likely get if they rented from LensRentals and hired a camera op without gear?
    I hate that producer's style of argument, it seems dishonest or like they're not giving you enough credit by purposely not acknowledging that there are other factors at hand.

    It's not only about matching a price list from LensRentals. They're hiring you for the convenience of you having everything you need already AKA saving the producer time ($$) or saving the producer $$ by not having to hire a production assistant to pick up/drop off all that crap, usually from more than one place. If they're from out of town you're helping them even more.


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    #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Run&Gun View Post
    Call me crazy, but I preferred it when a camera cost $40K+. Rates were high and they stayed there until the wash of "low-priced" cameras started flooding the market during the last ~3-5 years. Unless you were a bottom feeder, there were no "Can you do this for $500?" jobs or "I can get a camera for $200," because you couldn't!.

    $150 for a $20K camera? Yeah, that's not happening on my watch. I still rent my original C300 out for $600.
    Well, I say enjoy the ride as long as you can, inevitably rates will decrease looking back over the years, this is exactly the same type of statement being made every few years with new kit coming out and changing the landscape, same back when digibeta was king, then the 5D revolution and RED's vs 35MM killing the industry etc etc.

    Today film is back stronger than ever as it's unique within the digital landscape but I don't think the same can be said for C300's in a few years sadly, 5K/6K is pretty much on the consumer doorstep for next year I'd say...

    Saying that, I like to think most freelance DP's are not dictated by their gear and clients generally choose a DP for their work regardless of kit and you bring whatever works for the project, from that perspective it's all relative.


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    #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Coughlin View Post
    What does $1600 come with? Camera, lenses (photo only, or 17-120 too?), and tripod? Lights? Shoulder rig and other stabilization gear?

    I've been doing $1200 for a C300 Mark II with me, still lenses, and tripod. Sometimes I'll add an extra $100 for a Zacuto shoulder rig. $350 for my lighting kit, and $200 for audio, so an interview kit for example comes out to around $1800. Cinema lenses are extra, $400 for the 30-105, $400 for the 15.5-47, and $150-$200 for the 18-80.



    I actually just had a producer send me a shopping cart from LensRentals for the gear they wanted, and asked if I could match that by bringing my gear and working as a cam op.

    So how would you approach that? Tell the client you're a skilled cameraman with set rates for gear, not a rental house, and if they just want anybody with gear, then they can rent (significantly) cheaper from LensRentals but not get you with it? As in, you're basically up-charging the going rental price because you consider yourself more skilled/experienced then what they'd likely get if they rented from LensRentals and hired a camera op without gear?
    Today(yesterday, now) it was camera, sticks and a lens(I actually chose to use my long ENG lens for this particular shoot). So, you're right there in the range of what we normally see for a camera and lighting package, minus the audio: $1600(on the low) to $1900.

    I think where some of the confusion is happening is breaking down rental rates on gear. The majority of the time, I'm a package. The vast majority of my work is for network television. It's how it works in that world. It's not corporate or commercial production. You're not "spec'ing out" and bidding a gear package. "Can you match this? Can you match that?" No, it's "We pay X for Y level gear package/crew" There are days you may "give a little away" doing that compared to a corporate or commercial job where you can a la carte and line item stuff and there are other days you come out way ahead. I think looking at my lifetime average, I'm still ahead, when I look back at all the times I got paid a full day rate to just go and shoot a live-to-tape(off the shoulder, top light and a stick mic) or a live shot that only took up three hours of my day total. It was the next best thing to free money.

    I'm only talking about camera rental rates when someone is calling me up and saying, "Hey, do you have cam X that I can rent from you?". Not a producer calling and wanting a break-down. Because that honestly doesn't happen much for me.

    Now, I'm not a completely in-flexible person that isn't willing to try to work with someone within their budget and try to help them out. And with that being said, I own my own gear. I own a LOT of gear. And I own a lot of very nice, WELL TAKEN CARE OF AND MAINTAINED gear. I do have certain clients that I will occasionally shoot with their gear, but that is not the majority of the time. I'm not in the business of shooting with rental gear. It's one thing if we're talking Alexa type territory, but pretty much anything short of that, I can cover that base with what I own. If a producer wants to rent from a rental house instead of hiring me with my package, I'll give them names of other guys that don't own gear that they can call. I've seen that rental gear train run off the tracks many times, and it's never at an opportune time. If your shoot is important enough to fly across the country and you're hiring a local photographer who has a great gear package, why not use his gear instead of trying to save a few bucks and risk your shoot on rental gear that may or may not work when it shows up. Or may be missing important pieces. Or may not show up at all when you need it. I bailed out a crew last year that was shooting a doc in the mountains about 1.5-2 hours from here. They rented an F5 and the rental house forgot to put the PL adapter in the kit and all the glass they were using was PL. Somehow they got my name and sent a PA to my house to get my adapter and rent it for a few days. Hell, I've been on a shoot where the camera showed up totally F'd and unusable. You could boil it down to risk vs. reward. Is saving a few hundred dollars on a rental really more important or worth possibly jeopardizing a whole shoot?


    "As in, you're basically up-charging the going rental price because you consider yourself more skilled/experienced then what they'd likely get if they rented from LensRentals and hired a camera op without gear?"

    I make no allusions to being some extraordinarily talented DP. I consider myself good, easy to work with and I bring 20 years of experience to the table. I also have much better gear(same piece for same piece) than you're going to more than likely get from a rental house. I'm not "up-charging" from the going rental price. Those rates are meaningless to me and have virtually nothing to do with my world. A better way to look at it instead of just trying to compare dollar for dollar on a piece of gear, someone like me is like a value added reseller in a way, with all the little "extras" to make the shoot work better or smoother or the little piece that might me sitting in the truck that can save the day. We can debate this 'till the cows come home. If someone can only see dollar signs on the bottom line, you know what they're gonna do. But compared to a rental house, I am the better VALUE.

    *Climbing off soapbox and crawling into bed...*


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    #97
    Senior Member indiawilds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Run&Gun View Post
    Top 25 market. I'm not a rental house and I'm not competing with rental houses. When I rent gear, it's bonus money, it's not my primary revenue stream. I'm not trying to screw anyone, but I'm not running a charity, either.

    And you're right about most of my clients and the "package price" range. Its not that they don't care about cameras and they don't matter, they do, but most of the clientele I deal with want either C300, F5/55 or Broadcast ENG cams and those aren't $500 shoots, as much as they're trying their damnedest to get us there. I have had the odd/occasional call for an Fs7(don't own, not renting) and someone looking to rent an F3 this week, but nothing below the C300 level. I just did a shoot today for a production company based here in town(they're a regular client). It was about an hour shoot. Two 'one-man C300 crews' and an audio op w/gear. I'm not sure what they pay the audio guys, because they book each crew member seperately, but we make $1600/each to shoot with our C300's, which is actually ~15% below what another client pays.

    I don't get how some on here seem to get so seemingly upset over the rates that some of us get for our C300's and working with them. And then they call the clients stupid or ignorant for paying that much. Some act like that money is coming out of their own pocket. Or somehow it's morally wrong, because that camera can be rented from an internet rental house for literally peanuts. Hell, y'all should be thanking me and others like me for trying to keep the rates UP across the industry instead of encouraging the decline.
    Completely agree with you. I have seen people pricing way too low and then struggle to buy a decent pair of shoes. In my market there are lot of people who are there to press the record button of which ever camera at extremely low rates. I have had producers calling me to shoot in hired C300s or even asked me to just hire out my equipment. I simply say that I will only rent out my equipment to a production where I am shooting. I am not a rental business. Clients come after burning their hands with cheap guys.

    One needs to be patient and not grudge the established DP who can get decent rates.

    Lot of new DPs make the mistake of assuming their worth based on the equipment they bring to the table. In such cases, the client will compare with rental houses. One should remember that in marketing theory there is something called Premium pricing. Pricing often reflects the value of the individual. If a DP is not confident of his skills, then he can't quote 1600 usd. If you are confident and believe in your abilities to deliver decent output, then you can charge decent rates. Else, it is just an endless struggle for existence and producers will keep on squeezing you.
    Sabyasachi Patra / Wild Tiger Productions
    Equipment Reviews:http://www.indiawilds.com/diary/category/equipment/
    Youtube channel:https://www.youtube.com/user/IndiaWilds
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    #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by cane141 View Post
    Well, I say enjoy the ride as long as you can, inevitably rates will decrease looking back over the years ...
    They'll likely to spread more - more high end jobs, more middle level jobs, way way more low end jobs, as the industry is going from a limited to an unlimited video delivery universe. New better gear will keep driving gear prices down but the ability to produce more material than ever will enable the elite to charge more. What you're alluding to - from the Betacams on down - was almost entirely based on the technological improvement and the declining costs of cameras while the delivery system stayed fairly stable. It's all out of the window with the streaming coming along.


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    #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Coughlin View Post
    I actually just had a producer send me a shopping cart from LensRentals for the gear they wanted, and asked if I could match that by bringing my gear and working as a cam op.
    I wouldn't even going to dignify that with a response.


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