Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 35
  1. Collapse Details
    #11
    Senior Member stoneinapond's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    2,110
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by joe12south View Post

    Exposing properly or -1 stop for situations requiring extra highlight protection is the way to go for overall best possible PQ.
    From my limited time with V-Log on the GH5, I have to agree. It seems to me you can't treat the GH5 like a super GH4. It's almost a different camera and the old rules/suggestions don't apply. Don't over expose.


    Reply With Quote
     

  2. Collapse Details
    #12
    Senior Member wschmid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    168
    Default
    I do not see any difference in the advise for v log l and s log2/3 really. The general rule is to use the native iso, and apply white or gray cards to adjust the a waveform or zebra. The points of 50% and 90% are defined in the white papers and wellknown. If one wishes to reduce noise a typical approach is to reduce the ISO and stick to these points, if necessary. That is not different for the GH4 and the Shogun, or not different for my FS7 - and why should it be different for the GH5 beside the point that we have now an internal waveform monitor and internal 10bit recording up to UHD 30p/DCI 4K 24p?
    Kind regards,

    Wolfgang


    Reply With Quote
     

  3. Collapse Details
    #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    748
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by wschmid View Post
    I do not see any difference in the advise for v log l and s log2/3 really. The general rule is to use the native iso, and apply white or gray cards to adjust the a waveform or zebra. The points of 50% and 90% are defined in the white papers and wellknown. If one wishes to reduce noise a typical approach is to reduce the ISO and stick to these points, if necessary. That is not different for the GH4 and the Shogun, or not different for my FS7 - and why should it be different for the GH5 beside the point that we have now an internal waveform monitor and internal 10bit recording up to UHD 30p/DCI 4K 24p?
    The technique isn't different, but the IRE values for midpoint and highlight differ from curve to curve.


    Reply With Quote
     

  4. Collapse Details
    #14
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by wschmid View Post
    I do not see any difference in the advise for v log l and s log2/3 really. The general rule is to use the native iso, and apply white or gray cards to adjust the a waveform or zebra. The points of 50% and 90% are defined in the white papers and wellknown. If one wishes to reduce noise a typical approach is to reduce the ISO and stick to these points, if necessary. That is not different for the GH4 and the Shogun, or not different for my FS7 - and why should it be different for the GH5 beside the point that we have now an internal waveform monitor and internal 10bit recording up to UHD 30p/DCI 4K 24p?
    What you're quoting is the actual, sane, verified rules, and I agree with you.

    What's different about VLOG-L vs. other logs is when we get to the "common advice" nonsense that floats around the web that "you should always overexpose log by a stop or two." That's the part I'm referring to. Whereas people have been able to get away with doing that with other logs that have symmetrical curves (-6/+6 around middle gray) it is utterly terrible advice for VLOG-L (which is asymmetrical, -8/+4). Overexposing VLOG-L by 2 stops would result in a curve of -10/+2! Your skin tone levels would be practically the same level as white.

    It's just bad advice and needs to be stamped out.


    5 out of 5 members found this post helpful.
    Reply With Quote
     

  5. Collapse Details
    #15
    Senior Member visceralpsyche's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Hilversum, The Netherlands
    Posts
    684
    Default
    Agreed. Any arbitrary "overexpose by X amount of stops" is just silly and really just shows the repeater's lack of knowledge about how digital sensors work.

    Whether people like it or not, there is one surefire way to maximise exposure and dynamic range in any digital camera - Expose To The Right.

    Do that and you will ALWAYS keep your highlights intact, and give your sensor the most latitude, as long as you white balance properly first. Then your shadow detail will be as clean as possible and you will see as deep into the shadows as possible, to the limit of the sensor.

    I shoot like this 100% of the time with accurate, repeatable results. Yes, this method requires balancing the shots down in post to match what you saw on set. But if you are serious about image quality, you are doing this already. The result is clean, deep blacks with lots of shadow detail, no clipped highlights and a beautiful, filmic image.

    Why shoot any other way, unless it's for instant handoff, and even then, it still helps to have your zebras set to ETTR clipping just so you know you haven't clipped your image.

    Cheers,

    Paul
    Paul Leeming
    Writer/Director/Cinematographer/Actor
    Visceral Psyche Films

    www.visceralpsyche.com

    Mobile NL: +31 (0)6 2095 2590
    Mobile JP: +81 (0)80 8439 4635
    Twitter:
    @visceralpsyche

    Facebook: Paul Leeming

    Epic-X #135 DRAGON & GH5 w/ EF Metabones Speed Booster


    Reply With Quote
     

  6. Collapse Details
    #16
    Senior Member Bern Caughey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    3,456
    Default
    Barry speaks to ETTR in the White Paper, & it's worth a read.

    As someone who hands off most their footage I'm not a fan of ETTR as it creates at lot of work for the DIT, &/or post. For consistent exposure, especially skin, I use either False Color, or Zebras with a 18% Grey/90% White card.

    http://www.xdcam-user.com/2014/07/la...e-card-review/


    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Reply With Quote
     

  7. Collapse Details
    #17
    Senior Member wschmid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    168
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry_Green View Post
    What's different about VLOG-L vs. other logs is when we get to the "common advice" nonsense that floats around the web that "you should always overexpose log by a stop or two." That's the part I'm referring to. Whereas people have been able to get away with doing that with other logs that have symmetrical curves (-6/+6 around middle gray) it is utterly terrible advice for VLOG-L (which is asymmetrical, -8/+4). Overexposing VLOG-L by 2 stops would result in a curve of -10/+2! Your skin tone levels would be practically the same level as white.

    It's just bad advice and needs to be stamped out.
    I agree that that we have to take care with the asymmetrical curves of v log l - what is one of the major points for critisim of V log L since the curves were simply taken from the Varicam curves. So ending up with a asymmetical curve in combination with loosing everything about IRE 81 is not so great for V log L.

    But beside that we have to be very specific, I think. According to Panasonic the native ISO for the GH4 is 800 (and the same for the GH5 I think). The dynamic range should have a maximum of the 12 stops with ISO 800. For the log shooting with FS7 a typical advice is to reduce the actual ISO below the native ISO - what reduces both noise but also the dynamic range. For the FS7 it is less important maybe, compared to the GH4/GH5 - due to the higher number of stops (14) but also the more symmetrical log curves both in slog2/3. So to adjust ISO in the GH4/5 for example from 800 to 400 is possible, but will harm the dynamic range. Because what will we do with our beloved white and gray cards (I use the same as shown in the link to Alisters page) - we will still stick to expose to the 42 IRE or 61 IRE. Means, that we will overexpose by 1 stop if we follow that approach. And then we reduce the footage again in the postpro by this 1 stop. So this is one possible form of ETTR - but limited in this example to 1 stop and not exposing as high as possible (until your footage reaches IRE81 and start to clip).


    Quote Originally Posted by visceralpsyche View Post
    Agreed. Any arbitrary "overexpose by X amount of stops" is just silly and really just shows the repeater's lack of knowledge about how digital sensors work.

    Whether people like it or not, there is one surefire way to maximise exposure and dynamic range in any digital camera - Expose To The Right.

    Do that and you will ALWAYS keep your highlights intact, and give your sensor the most latitude, as long as you white balance properly first. Then your shadow detail will be as clean as possible and you will see as deep into the shadows as possible, to the limit of the sensor.
    But how exatly do you implement the "expose to the right"? One way would be to increase the luminance compared to the approach above, using for example the new waveform monitor in the GH5 (or the Shogun together with a GH4). You can increase the luminance until the signal start to clip at the 81%. No idea where your are compared to the approach where you use a grey/white card - but you use the maximum of the luminance range that is available. So what approach do you follow in detail?
    Kind regards,

    Wolfgang


    Reply With Quote
     

  8. Collapse Details
    #18
    Senior Member Batutta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Planet 10
    Posts
    7,140
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by wschmid View Post
    According to Panasonic the native ISO for the GH4 is 800 (and the same for the GH5 I think). The dynamic range should have a maximum of the 12 stops with ISO 800.
    DXOMARK found this not to be true. The GH4's dynamic range is maximum at the lowest ISO. I've found this to be true and always shoot the GH4 at ISO 200 whenever possible. I wish you could shoot at 100 in video mode, but only possible with stills.
    "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no use being a damn fool about it." - W.C. Fields


    Reply With Quote
     

  9. Collapse Details
    #19
    Senior Member Thomas Smet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,656
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by wschmid View Post
    But beside that we have to be very specific, I think. According to Panasonic the native ISO for the GH4 is 800 (and the same for the GH5 I think). The dynamic range should have a maximum of the 12 stops with ISO 800.
    I'm not sure Panasonic has ever officially stated what the native ISO is of any camera. I think that was projected from other users based on their experience with other cameras. Even if the native ISO is 800 that doesn't mean the dynamic range has to follow that.


    Reply With Quote
     

  10. Collapse Details
    #20
    Senior Member wschmid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    168
    Default
    800 is what one find in the net - but you are right: I have not seen that published by Panasonic. By the way, that is something that is not great too. We have the same situation with Sonys FS7 - where a lot of people talk about a native ISO of 2000 in the CINE EI mode, but a lot of usere report that this is wrong.

    It would be great if the industry would publish those figures really - since there the dynamic range should achive a maximum.
    Kind regards,

    Wolfgang


    Reply With Quote
     

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •