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    #11
    Senior Member
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    I've had a couple posts removed recently too. I tried to contact someone as to why that happened but nobody is getting back to me. I posted lenses as a set and they didn't sell so now I'm wanting to post them individually. I first marked my original thread as sold and then made a new post but that new post got removed. I figured that was a signal to adjust the original post so I changed my original post back from sold, changed the prices and description and bumped it so it went to the top of the marketplace (which I read in the rules was allowed). That one got removed too. So before I try it again I wanna make sure I'm not breaking some rule I don't know about. How long do I need to wait til I can post them? I can't seem to get a response when I've tried to contact dvxuser by clicking on the 'contact us' tab.
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    #12
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    Jun 2008
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    Hi Morgster, what happened to your post, it says the Zeiss ZF.2 lens set was sold and the pictures you posted were removed? The post must have been altered.
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    #13
    Senior Member Mark Williams's Avatar
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    The rules are the rules. It is a prerequisite for using the site. We are all guests here.
    Last edited by Mark Williams; 01-14-2017 at 08:32 AM.
    Regards,

    Mark

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    #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Williams View Post
    The rules are the rules. It is a prerequisite for using the site. We are all guests here.
    A forum is a community. Without it's member's it is nothing.
    Rules do not have to be rigid walls or a barrier between people and what is reasonable.
    It is entirely possible to question their validity in a respectful way.
    Otherwise this very forum "Site Info and Feedback" would not exist.
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    #15
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    I just had a listing for my FS5 deleted. It had never been bumped (it was posted last night) and it seemed to meet all of the guidelines.

    I've PM'd David to ask why so I can repost it without whatever caused it to be deleted... but this "moderation" seems to be anything but "moderate." It feels very heavy-handed. While I understand that this site needs rules to operate smoothly (and reduce workload on the mods) it doesn't seem like it'd be too much to ask that they notify you when your post is deleted and a short snippet as to why. I'm a member of dozens of forums with "For Sale" sections and none of them do this "post is just gone, no reason why" thing.

    The only thing I can think of is the rule about "active" posts since I'd forgotten to mark a few sold, but it would be nice to at least get a heads-up that that's the reason.

    EDIT: Apparently it was because I said I was open to splitting the lens out from the camera body. Apparently that's enough to get the delete hammer dropped on my post for the "items in a bundle must remain in a bundle" rule (which I can't figure out the reasoning behind, but whatever).
    Last edited by jbregar; 03-10-2017 at 08:14 AM.
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    #16
    Admin Jason Ramsey's Avatar
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    While I can certainly appreciate that the marketplace enforcement may seem a little harsh at times, unfortunately, there are just too many issues with scammers and other nefarious goings on within the marketplace. As a result, we tend to have to opt for strictness. The marketplace is a free service for the members, and David donates considerable time and effort to try to keep things running as smoothly and safely as possible.

    We also try to establish a consistent structure for posting as this helps with navigation as well as helps identify folks who fall into the category of users more likely to have nefarious motives.

    That said, I am certainly open to listening to any rule change suggestions, or feedback on rules that any of you think are completely unnecessary, and you can feel free to pm those suggestions to me.

    We generally opt for a more hardline approach, b/c the alternative is that its just too much of a headache for us to maintain the marketplace as a free service, and we'd be likely to just get rid of it if we can't keep reasonable control over activity within the marketplace.

    Our primary motives are *trying* to keep it as safe as possible in a buyer/seller beware environment, and enforcing a predictable post structure which helps identify potential red flag users, and tries to keep things clean for members browsing the marketplace.

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    #17
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    Jason, I do completely understand that this is a free service... but on the other hand, I'm guessing it brings considerable traffic into the web site that you guys can then monetize (while also realizing that the monetization may or may not cover the costs to run the site).

    That said, I think you can take a "hardline" approach without being overly harsh or mysterious. The problem here isn't that you're deleting scammy posts... it's that posts that have a small issue with them are getting completely axed with no warning and no follow up... and then when asked for clarification, mods respond enigmatically.

    I think the "scammers with nefarious motives" thing is a little bit of a red herring... I'm an established user who's been around here for 9 years. The chances that I've all of a sudden decided to scam a bunch of DVXUser members and run off to retire in Nigeria are quite remote. Wouldn't it be much much better for all involved if you guys gave established users the benefit of the doubt before just axing their posts over what can seem like arbitrary (and minor) rules?

    I should note that I received a response from David and replied asking why the rule about splitting bundles exists. The response I got to my "why does that rule exist, I'm not arguing with it, I just want to understand" was "It creates moderation issues." Is that really the kind of response moderators should be giving good-faith questions about why the rules exist? That kind of thing does nothing to help me understand why it exists and why it was worth exercising the nuclear option and deleting my post. It gives one the feeling that we're being hand-waved away. That's not a productive dialog between mods and users.

    In short, while I totally understand that a lot of the moderation is a volunteer service... it might be worth re-visiting how the moderators approach the users (especially long-time users) and make sure you're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater looking for those with "nefarious motives."
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    #18
    Senior Member starcentral's Avatar
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    Jason,

    I have to agree with jbregar and in fact wrote an identical post in the site feedback section last night but deleted it because I felt i wrote it out of rage and it wasn't appropriate.

    I was deeply frustrated having 2 posts in a row deleted without really knowing what happened or even being communicated too, i.e. for all I know there was a glitch with web, servers, etc..? I honestly didn't know and that was extremely frustrating for me not to mention a waste of time. After further pondering I wondered if maybe there was something against rules in my post so read the rules and thought I figured it out but nope… 2nd listing also deleted again without any notice, indication or other of what went wrong.

    I got in touch with David to help me out (who was very nice and did help me and I was very thankful to him several times and let him know that I was thankful and that I appreciated his time to help me and for all the work he does) after having figured 2 posts going missing it had to be that they were being deleted. Again, only speculation on my part at that point as I had no clear indication if I was doing something wrong or what. David pointed out that I too had an issue with bundles and splitting. In fact I was not splitting anything, I had 2 bundles listed, and then 4-5 separate items that I wanted to sell. But then David explained I can not have them mixed, they must go in separate thread.

    Look at all the time, confusion and now even more posts about this problem that is being wasted not to mention it actually happened to at least two people on the same night we know about.. I'm not slamming anyone specific, nor hold it against them for following rules or anything like that as I know rules exist for a reason and that moderators here volunteer their time for free and put in a lot of work and hours to make sure the forum runs properly. But at at the same time you must take feedback from NEW and OLD member's experience about what is happening on the forum and in this case the marketplace and hopefully do something about it.

    After what I experienced in the last few days I was deeply shocked at what a hardline approach was taken, without even any communication about it at all.

    If the market place is that much of a burden to DVX then get rid of it, but continuing with this type of process and experience for members is non-deserving and will only do DVXuser more harm then good.
    Last edited by starcentral; 03-10-2017 at 09:36 AM.
    Dennis Hingsberg
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    #19
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    It does create moderation issues.

    Typically, we see someone offering a bundled camera package with six additional items also listed in the bundle. Then seller offers to "split the package."

    What results is a series of questions asking how much each item costs. This repeatedly bumps the post to the detriment of other buyers.

    Then, the seller says he/she will offer the items individually as well as a bundle.

    The seller then bumps the post after changing the price for the bundle, while not changing the price of any individual item in the bundle.

    Then the seller lowers the price of one item in the bundle, and doesn't change the price of the bundle itself.

    As a moderator, I have to determine if this type of listing, changed pricing, etc. complies our policy on bumping.

    Then a number of complaints from other sellers are received because this one thread overtaking the rest of the sellers.

    That requires much more moderation for the thread.

    Multiply that one thread by several more and then moderation is nearly impossible, and we have returned to the wild west in the Marketplace.

    We have no issue with any seller who offers items for sale as a package, or individually. We just ask that it not be done in the same thread.

    As to "heavy handed" moderation, I am uncertain what that means. We have rules. They are stated in the Guidelines, and we ask that they be observed.

    I try very hard to enforce those rules fairly, consistently, and objectively. I'm unclear how this translates into heavy handed.

    If someone else wants to volunteer to send personal messages to every person who does not follow the guidelines to explain the issue, then I welcome that assistance.

    But I don't have the time to that, and still meet my other obligations for my business and writing.
    Last edited by David Saraceno; 03-10-2017 at 09:37 AM.
    David S.



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    #20
    Admin Jason Ramsey's Avatar
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    If I can unpack this a bit, it seems the main gripe (that we may be able to address) is that some of you (established members) are feeling like you don't get a clear indication as to why a moderation action was taken in the marketplace.

    I can understand that point of view. However, looking at it from David's perspective, it becomes that much more time consuming if he has to personally message every member whose marketplace thread he closes/deletes. This can also be multiplied by the fact that, this being the internet, interaction with folks frequently adds to length of time spent on each moderation issue, while (unfortunately) doing little to ease a particular member's frustration. In a perfect world, he could send a simple pm with explanation and 99 out of 100 times, that would be the end of it... Unfortunately, the ratios of it turning into him having to spend 30+ minutes per user make it too time consuming for him.

    So, however poorly I've just articulated it, there is the concern of trying to strike the balance between adequately informing members to avoid unnecessary frustration, and not adding 30 minutes of back and forth private messaging to every (or even a few out of 10) moderation action in the marketplace (not to mention, that it sometimes does nothing to help minimize member frustration). Especially, when coupled with (from our perspective) feeling like the rules are laid out pretty clearly, and long-time members are the ones we most expect to have a good handle on the marketplace rules, which haven't really changed in a long time.

    While, I can understand that (from your perspective) it doesn't seem that the enforcement provides enough benefit, I witness the benefit first hand just by contrasting the marketplace here, with the higher traffic marketplace on reduser, which is a never-ending battle against excessive commercial activity, opportunists, and scammers. Things very quickly become a cluster-poo poo, which is why when I weigh the inconvenience, vs. the value that David provides, I'm inclined to opt for a harder line (at least with regards to the marketplace).

    Now, if there is a way that we can better communicate the cause of a marketplace moderation action that doesn't add to David's burden, I'm all for discussing those options. Again, feel free to pm me any suggestions along those lines. I'm not saying this to guilt trip anyone, or fish for praise, but... straight up... the time and effort that David has contributed to single-handedly managing the marketplace over the years is absolutely priceless to me and to the site. He has my full trust and confidence to manage the marketplace as a result of the peace of mind he provides, and I'm not inclined to make his job more burdensome without significant benefit to the marketplace.

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