Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 52
  1. Collapse Details
    #21
    Default
    This very thing happened in the music recording industry 15 years ago. It will not stop until things are completely flattened out so be ready for it. The home studio has for the most part decimated the recording studio business model (at least 90 percent of them). The only true investment that will not leave you bankrupt is investing in talent. Talented people that push the buttons, look though the lens, place the lights, write the treatments. BMCC is just pushing the flattening process ahead a few years. Im sorry ruffalo, BMCC is not a walmart camera. The image it produces and flexibility it has in post is as robust and as beautiful any Red products image. Lets not forget who started the flattening process in 2007 with the introduction of the Red one


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Reply With Quote
     

  2. Collapse Details
    #22
    Senior Member Danielvilliers's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,071
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Ruffo View Post
    No. Its' not. Not everybody here is a hobbyist. Some people here realize that plumetting equipment costs means plumetting revenue for rental shops. At some point it will no longer be viable to own a rental shop at all. If that happens, only those who can afford to buy will be shooting, and only with what they own.

    Many people here also do not realize that if the equipement you just bought drops in value, you just lost money. they don;t realize it because they do not have sufficient understanding of how depreciation and other economic things actually work.

    many people here also confuse their artistic career with what equipment they own, forgetting that people like David Mullen own nothing more than a light meter, maybe oen lens or two, if that. They just rent. Equipment purchase should be an economic decision, vs. rental, nothing more.

    Red just made a new sensor, for example, and I'm sure some people will look at BM's new cams and say "I don;t want to invest in cameras anymore, because next month they will cost $1000, and I won;t have time to amortize my investment." So Red maybe will not get enough return on their investment. That does not encourage innovation, if people cannot make money.

    also consider this: before BM came along, colorists made over $100 an hour in salary (not counting the suite). Now that is down to maybe $20 net, once you factor in how much it really costs to make a grading suite that works. You think that's good? That people have to keep a second job for their whole lives? They also sold $150 000 DaVinci suites one week, and then the same thing for $1000 the week after. WHat do you think happened to those people who paid $100 000K? Yes. They went bankrupt, fired all their staff.

    So I for one will cheer if BM goes bankrupt. They put many people I know out of business - its' just karma.

    There is more to this business than amateurs making their little indy film with no money as a hobby.
    I am not a professional videographer but a professional photographer. The same thing happened in the photography world. Today you can get a d800 that beats every medium format back except in resolution for 3k. In the end what matters is the quality of your work, your vision etc. If you think your gear is going to make you get work then you will have to change career. What BM is doing is leveling the playing field, for some it will be really bad, but for others it will be a new set of opportunities. I have a set of 4 flash that cost me about 4k and I can overpower the sun with it. For continuous light it will be different but for gear to cost 5 to ten time more just because it is written cinema is an aberration. So do you think a handle must cost $ 500, is it made of titanium. How solid can it be, more solid that the tools of a construction company, that is abused 10 times more. You want it or not, in 5 years you will have 4k camera with 14 stop of DR and global shutter for less than $ 5000. Either you adapt or you will disappear. But your skill and craft will still have the same value because even in 5 years the person who does know how to light, compose etc, no camera in the world will change that.


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Reply With Quote
     

  3. Collapse Details
    #23
    Senior Member Danielvilliers's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,071
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by dustwaterwindfire View Post
    This very thing happened in the music recording industry 15 years ago. It will not stop until things are completely flattened out so be ready for it. The home studio has for the most part decimated the recording studio business model (at least 90 percent of them). The only true investment that will not leave you bankrupt is investing in talent. Talented people that push the buttons, look though the lens, place the lights, write the treatments. BMCC is just pushing the flattening process ahead a few years. Im sorry ruffalo, BMCC is not a walmart camera. The image it produces and flexibility it has in post is as robust and as beautiful any Red products image. Lets not forget who started the flattening process in 2007 with the introduction of the Red one
    +1, some people feel threaten because the business model is changing, what they call quality, was the investment in gear that they have made, that gave them an advantage. When this disappear, it is the human factor that will come through or not.


    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Reply With Quote
     

  4. Collapse Details
    #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    479
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by Postmaster View Post
    It's called technical evolution and progress.

    Happened to many industries in the last 200 years - and yeah, there will always be blood.
    You have to adjust or fall down.

    Don't want to get too philosophical, but:

    Colorists used to made a 100 bucks an hour, Avid was selling mediocre computers for insane prices, broadcast cameras used to cost more than most folks make in 2 years, the list goes on.

    But was that right? I mean right like in righteous?
    Or was it more like taking advantage, just because they can and everybody else had no choice?
    It used to be that a few companies controlled a few choices, and none raced to the bottom with price and "good enough but not quite" solutions to confuse producers and agency creatives, and decimate rental houses and owner-operators. Price drops were gradual, and there was real care to help people who invested in their products have time to recoup. Arris and Sony still do this, which is why anyone who invested in an Alexa likely amortized it.

    BM does not have to sell their cams for peanuts. That does not encourage tech innovation. Putting you competitors out of business does not encourage anything. Besides, apart from the pocket cam and its small size, their cameras are not really technologically more advanced in any way than many other products available, just cheaper, and less well made with poor QC. There is nothing groundbreaking at all about the BM cam other than price. They can't really claim to be moving tech forward.

    I agree with Charles about Red, to some degree, although I feel they are not nearly as egregious as BM.

    Very few of you actually make a living at this, so you cheer when things happen that hurt those who do, but seem to benefit you the hobbyest in the short term. Well, think about the fact that every time salaries go down in the pro world, or people are put out of business, your chance of reaching your dream of one day paying the rent with this goes down in probability too.


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Reply With Quote
     

  5. Collapse Details
    #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    479
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by Danielvilliers View Post
    I am not a professional videographer but a professional photographer. The same thing happened in the photography world. Today you can get a d800 that beats every medium format back except in resolution for 3k. In the end what matters is the quality of your work, your vision etc. If you think your gear is going to make you get work then you will have to change career. What BM is doing is leveling the playing field, for some it will be really bad, but for others it will be a new set of opportunities. I have a set of 4 flash that cost me about 4k and I can overpower the sun with it. For continuous light it will be different but for gear to cost 5 to ten time more just because it is written cinema is an aberration. So do you think a handle must cost $ 500, is it made of titanium. How solid can it be, more solid that the tools of a construction company, that is abused 10 times more. You want it or not, in 5 years you will have 4k camera with 14 stop of DR and global shutter for less than $ 5000. Either you adapt or you will disappear. But your skill and craft will still have the same value because even in 5 years the person who does know how to light, compose etc, no camera in the world will change that.
    Blah blah blah it's all about the art. I know that. I don't need to own gear for any of what you say. I'm talking about people who buy gear, because without us there would be no NAB or anyone to build a booth at NAB. I can just rent anything I want to make the same art. (Or maybe I can't because the rental house was put out of business.)

    I actually mentioned David Mullen who owns $0 of gear and you nonetheless give me your hackneyed art speech.

    And if you really think that salaries and the cost of tools used have no correlation, you are very naive.

    Also, cinema tools cost more because they are not mass-produced. The mass market is happy to shoot on iPhones. There's another basic lesson in economic reality for you.


    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Reply With Quote
     

  6. Collapse Details
    #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    479
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by Danielvilliers View Post
    +1, some people feel threaten because the business model is changing, what they call quality, was the investment in gear that they have made, that gave them an advantage. When this disappear, it is the human factor that will come through or not.
    Except I'll bet you have no business plan at all - that you are not making your full-time living out of this.

    And owning gear has never been a career advantage for me - just a business investment. For the last time try to understand the difference. In the real world people look at your reel, and don't care what you own vs rent. Owning any gear will never make a serious producer hire you as a DP.


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Reply With Quote
     

  7. Collapse Details
    #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    479
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by dustwaterwindfire View Post
    This very thing happened in the music recording industry 15 years ago. It will not stop until things are completely flattened out so be ready for it. The home studio has for the most part decimated the recording studio business model (at least 90 percent of them). The only true investment that will not leave you bankrupt is investing in talent. Talented people that push the buttons, look though the lens, place the lights, write the treatments. BMCC is just pushing the flattening process ahead a few years. Im sorry ruffalo, BMCC is not a walmart camera. The image it produces and flexibility it has in post is as robust and as beautiful any Red products image. Lets not forget who started the flattening process in 2007 with the introduction of the Red one
    Anyone who claims that the BMCC image is not different from an Epic or a Red is not someone I would ever hire as a DP. Just the crop factor makes a huge difference, let alone the lack of OLPF. Your statement only proves you are not very attentive to the kinds of finer details that make a top DP earn what she or he does.

    It's a Walmart camera. Deal with it. I leaned on mini DV - the BM camera is way better than that.


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Reply With Quote
     

  8. Collapse Details
    #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    479
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by Postmaster View Post
    So what's your problem than?

    Your clients don't like skin textures andwhatnot on "Walmart" cameras,
    so you can continue to rent them your amortized REDs or shoot for them on RED and all is good.

    Oh, FYI BMC sharpens noting in camera - that's just what any sensor looks without a OPLF in front.
    If you don't like that, you always can make it as soft as RED material. Ether with a filter, vintage glass or in post.
    No you can't. It will never look the same. People said that about the 5D. You simply cannot replicate a proper OLPF in post.

    My clients are not the problem. I am very lucky - other people have clients who are less appreciative of fine details, so they can't do truly good work even if they would want to and would be able to - they are instead told there is only enough money for a BM camera or a 5D "because it's good enough". The problem is a general race toward "good enough" or in other words to the bottom
    Last edited by Robert Ruffo; 04-14-2013 at 04:11 PM.


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Reply With Quote
     

  9. Collapse Details
    #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    479
    Default
    Quote Originally Posted by OldCorpse View Post
    I don't understand. If the BM cams result in poor quality work, how is it competition for those who demand/do good quality work? If the BM cams are poor, then how does that impact rental houses that rent out Alexas? If only indy amateurs and hobbyists are satisfied with BM and DSLR quality work and gear, that does not impact big studios or professional freelancers who work with "pro" gear - David Mullen will still rent your stuff, so what's the problem? The DSLR market is not replacement, but addition to the market. All that's happened is that folks who would previously be sitting on their hands, now can afford to buy a DSLR/BMCC and start shooting - they took nothing away from you, they would not have rented your Alexa anyway. The DSLR crowd enlarged the market and stratified it, that's all - and that's a good thing for you as well, because eventually some small percentage of those DSLR guys will acquire the skills which will make them clients for your higher end rental business - and that would not have happened had they been shut out completely. So they ADDED to the business, not subtracted.

    You may have a small point about the colorists and crap software, but overall, you're wrong.
    If what you said was true, that would be wonderful.

    But more shooters did not magically create more projects and more paying work. What happened is that many projects got cut budgets, so the total amount of money now floating around for all freelancers to split between us - you me and David Mullen, everybody, is now smaller, and the number of people competing for those jobs larger.

    The profit margins of people like advertisers and film studios is higher, while many production companies and indy owner-operators are going bankrupt, despite being busy and popular, because the budgets just don't add up anymore.

    So in the end this "empowerment of the people" has led to huge corporations having more money, and us less.


    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Reply With Quote
     

  10. Collapse Details
    #30
    Dark Side of the Camera Postmaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    5,317
    Default
    Oh please - just because pencils are pretty cheap, that has not put anyone out of business, who makes a living with artsy pencil drawings.

    Everyones budgets got cut since years, - not only in our business.
    And that's not because the gear is getting affordable for talented folks , but because we are living in a major financial crisis.
    If you want to blame anybody, blame Goldman-Sachs and the rest of the Wallstreet mob.

    And yeah, do you really think a big agency suddenly picks some college kid, instead of a true and tried DP, just because the kid has a BMC?
    (The agency would hate the skin texture anyway) - camera cost is way below the line on any budget I know.
    Most of the time catering and craft service is more expensive, than renting a camera.
    Staff, lights, transportation , grip andwhatnot - you still need all that, and it's not getting any cheaper, just because cameras are getting cheaper.
    frankglencairn.wordpress.com
    http://twitter.com/FrankGlencairn



    Real men edit their films in a hex editor.


    Reply With Quote
     

Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •