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    Can the moderators Sticky this please?


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    i'm wondering, if you did an equivalent of your fabulous TruLog Profile?
    (It was Log Gamma and like Normal 4 Matrix ?)

    2 weeks ago we used it again on a rental C300 with the new firmware installed, while i wasn't aware of possible colorimetry changes due to the new firmware.
    It looked great as always. At least as i remember.

    Would you recommend still using it? Or better your WEED_Log instead (which has the log Matrix)?

    thanx so far!


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    Senior Member cowpunk52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebular View Post
    i'm wondering, if you did an equivalent of your fabulous TruLog Profile?
    (It was Log Gamma and like Normal 4 Matrix ?)

    2 weeks ago we used it again on a rental C300 with the new firmware installed, while i wasn't aware of possible colorimetry changes due to the new firmware.
    It looked great as always. At least as i remember.

    Would you recommend still using it? Or better your WEED_Log instead (which has the log Matrix)?

    thanx so far!
    Definitely use what looks best to your eye, but I think the TruLog profile may skew reds slightly orange and skin goes a tiny bit green with new firmware. When I tested it on the new firmware, TruLog and TruCine (built on same adjustments) didn't look bad, but just different from what I remember setting it at. What I think I'm noticing with the new firmware is that color is not so much completely changed, but a little subdued and subtly different. This likely has the effect of causing color adjustments made to compensate for older colorimetry issues to be a bit overdone on the newer FW. But again, I'm just speculating here, and trying to figure out what's going on!

    I sent my C300 out on a week long rental today, or I would post some comparisons of the TruLog and WEED_Log CP's. Either way, I think that WEED_Log is going to have a little bit nicer skin tones.
    Cinematographer | Camera Op | Occasional Director
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    Hey Brian
    I had a chance to try out your newest settings with the C300 with 1.07 firmware.
    The profiles all look great. I'm noticing that on red objects there's a slight shift towards orange. Do you notice that too?

    I wonder if its just a canon tendency to not capture red as naturally as the other main colors. I guess it could also be my lens (24-70 L and 24-105 L).
    Last edited by carlone; 02-09-2013 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Mistake


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    Quote Originally Posted by cowpunk52 View Post
    Definitely use what looks best to your eye, but I think the TruLog profile may skew reds slightly orange and skin goes a tiny bit green with new firmware. When I tested it on the new firmware, TruLog and TruCine (built on same adjustments) didn't look bad, but just different from what I remember setting it at. What I think I'm noticing with the new firmware is that color is not so much completely changed, but a little subdued and subtly different. This likely has the effect of causing color adjustments made to compensate for older colorimetry issues to be a bit overdone on the newer FW. But again, I'm just speculating here, and trying to figure out what's going on!

    I sent my C300 out on a week long rental today, or I would post some comparisons of the TruLog and WEED_Log CP's. Either way, I think that WEED_Log is going to have a little bit nicer skin tones.
    With the old firmware, i had the feeling, the Normal-Matrix was superior to Log-Matrix (not only skin tone) wise. In combination with Log-Gamma and your adjustments it was imo the best picture one could get out of the C300. (I did some adjustments on your TruLog CP as well).

    Damn, looks like i have to start for myself testing again.


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    Senior Member cowpunk52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlone View Post
    I wonder if its just a canon tendency to not capture red as naturally as the other main colors.
    Interesting that you bring this up - I had a brief discussion with Art Adams via twitter about the same subject yesterday. Here's the transcript:

    "Art Adams ‏@artadams
    @briancweed Why my C300/Alexa settings don't work: http://ow.ly/hzCMj Red in Canon's CFA isn't red but orange-red, with green crossover.


    Brian C. Weed ‏@BrianCWeed
    @artadams That makes sense; but what's the real-world benefit to the application?


    Art Adams ‏@artadams
    @briancweed The good news is flesh tones always look great, and blemishes that have red in them never stand out, because you can't make red.
    @briancweed The bad news is that if you ever need to shoot flesh tone and a Coke can at the same time, you can't get Coke w/out secondaries.


    Brian C. Weed ‏@BrianCWeed
    @artadams And what happens when we try to compensate for this in color matrix settings?


    Art Adams ‏@artadams
    @briancweed You can't. As soon as you pull that "red" value onto red you push flesh tones into red, and "red" objects become blue.
    @briancweed The color space of the sensor is truncated as it can't reach the Rec 709 primary. It falls short on the red/green line.
    @briancweed Also, green is pulled toward blue b/c they are subtracting a LOT of the green signal from red to make red as pure as possible.
    @briancweed The red dye isn't pure enough so you can't ever get there. Any real reds must be created in post artificially.
    @briancweed You can't access colors outside the color space defined by the primaries. Matrix only works inside space defined by primaries...
    @briancweed ...because all the matrix can do is add/subtract primaries from each other to make pure color.
    @briancweed Bottom line: people will look great, colors will look pretty, but the only really accurate color is blue and red doesn't exist."

    Unlike practically every other subject we shoot, everyone has a very concrete notion of what human skin looks like, and I think that arguably the toughest skin color to reproduce accurately and pleasingly is the complicated coloring of Caucasian skin. After all, skin has a broad range of colors within it, and natural skin tone prevails with pail colors. In painter's terms, it's made up of a combination of pigments like burnt sienna, burnt umber, cadmium red, permanent rose, Ultramarine blue and Pthalo blue.

    As Art said in a follow-up article to his Alexa Custom Profile (written before the discovery outlined above): "I played around with the C300 matrices yesterday during lunch on a shoot and was reminded just how hard it is to get both red and flesh tone dead-on accurate at the same time. Also, Canon cameras really emphasize red, probably because they put flesh tone ahead of all else, and there may be a very good reason why they tend to cheat red a little toward orange in most of their matrices: If your camera's colorimetry really punches up red, it's always better to err on the side of orange-red than blue red so as to avoid compromising flesh tone as well as dulling bright reds. To my eye, anyway, I find orange-biased reds less offensive than blue-biased reds, and I suspect Canon feels the same." source: http://provideocoalition.com/aadams/...-drawing-board

    It's clear to me that Canon puts skin tone above all else in it's color matrices, and having true red in it's CFA might make skin tones less pleasing and more red/blue than the soft warmth that the camera maker is known for. I have a feeling this may be the secret sauce that makes 'Canon color' so pleasing. At the cost, of course, of 100% true red.
    Last edited by cowpunk52; 02-10-2013 at 11:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowpunk52 View Post

    Unlike practically every other subject we shoot, everyone has a very concrete notion of what human skin looks like, and I think that arguably the toughest skin color to reproduce accurately and pleasingly is the complicated coloring of Caucasian skin. After all, skin has a broad range of colors within it, and natural skin tone prevails with pail colors. In painter's terms, it's made up of a combination of pigments like burnt sienna, burnt umber, cadmium red, permanent rose, Ultramarine blue and Pthalo blue.
    I'd have a difficult time painting skin variety with those pigments alone Just the way Canon does, the reds would need a tiny dash of yellow to get the slight orange bias to mix convincing caucasian hues...
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    Quote Originally Posted by troelskirk View Post
    I'd have a difficult time painting skin variety with those pigments alone Just the way Canon does, the reds would need a tiny dash of yellow to get the slight orange bias to mix convincing caucasian hues...
    i heard from an oil painter who taught students in china that he had to get used to painting east asian skin tones because they contain much fewer cool hues than caucasian ones.

    and on that note, when you guys say that canon's colorimetry is optimized for accurate caucasian skin tones, what does this do to non-caucasian skin tones?


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    Senior Member cowpunk52's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aly324 View Post
    i heard from an oil painter who taught students in china that he had to get used to painting east asian skin tones because they contain much fewer cool hues than caucasian ones.

    and on that note, when you guys say that canon's colorimetry is optimized for accurate caucasian skin tones, what does this do to non-caucasian skin tones?
    The colorimetry is certainly not optimized for caucasian skin at the expense of other skin tones - it's just optimized to give a very pleasing look to caucasian skin because it's the most difficult to get right. As far as I can see, other skin tones don't suffer.
    Cinematographer | Camera Op | Occasional Director
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    Senior Member cowpunk52's Avatar
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    I'm out shooting some doco stuff today, and have made some adjustments to the profiles. It's amazing how different the camera can act on a chart vs being out in the real world. Anyway, I'm fine tuning the color response to primary colors, and things are looking really nice. Red looks far more natural and skin tones are still great. Will post the updates tonight.
    Cinematographer | Camera Op | Occasional Director
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