Buying advice: pre-amp or pistol?

[olindacat]

Here comes the drama-queen....

I really wanted to make my dad sound rich and warm and his very best. I bought a used Neumann TLM103 thinking that was the best I could afford. Then I learned I needed to buy a shockmount. Of course, I don't own a studio and my environment sucks so I was looking at acoustic panels. Then the wine crate DIY VO box. Okay, no prob. Then I learn my 416 and NTG3 are no good for indoor dialogue in my apt. So, I get two Oct12s. Oh, but I need a shock mount for them too. Hey, what about a preamp too? WTF is a pre-amp?? I'm online six hours discovering how important they are. But then the $100 cables are too. I have no idea what a preamp even hooks into? Does that go before or after the mixer and the digital interface on my iMac? Or, do I just run the puppy straight into my PMD670? Or do I get a 44 magnum and end my career now? (Geez. I start out trying to do a good deed and I am getting the financial hammer. By far, I have spent more on audio, and no less about it, than any other poor slob on this forum. What's even more ironic, is that I keep on spending because, years ago, I read never to cheap out on audio. (What a jackass I am reminded endlessly that I am.) Rant over.

Anyone feeling pity for me yet? If so, I'd value your advice: What is a preamp? How do I use it with the Neumann TLM103? Can you recommend a good one that will live longer than me (smirk)? Is there a good shockmount for this mic that isn't $237? What kind of cable should I use? Do I need a pop filter and what kind do you recommend? What about a digital interface or a mixer? Do I need them too? Let's just assume I am not using my PMD670 field recorder, but an iMac instead. Does this impact the items needed? Or, is there an portable solution that I can use for multiple situations?

Now, once I've blown my wad buying all these things, how do I make use of it? (This is where I am told I should hire pros.)

I am hoping this post inspires those of you who think you can DIY all the time, that it is possibly smarter and cheaper to hire a pro. (I just happen to be a schmo....)

[olindacat]

I wonder if this would help? http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PTMboxPro

[Richard Crowley]

You may have fallen into the delusion that buying expensive gear is all you need to make good audio. In fact, some very good audio has been made with very modest equipment and some experimentation and intelligence in application. I saw your previous posting about buying a $1000 microphone and shook my head at the disconnect from reality. You seem to be in a frenzy of throwing around money without any appreciation for the WHOLE picture.

Without any details of HOW you are recording your dad, it is not clear whether you do, in fact need shock-mounts at all. And nobody needs a $100 mic cable. The audio world is full of charlatans selling boutique snake-oil junk like $100 mic cables.

The prohibition of shotgun mics indoors is NOT absolute. It depends on the conditions. In fact, some voice-over artists prefer shotgun mics in the studio.

No, without reviewing the entire scenario (including descriptions or even photos of the setup and hearing sample recordings) it would appear that throwing another $1000 at a mic preamp is just silly. Unless you are made of money and want to personally rescue the economy.

[David W. Jones]

Going on your track record buying mics, you would likely buy 5 or 6 pistols before selecting one you liked, but then... Which ammunition? Hmmm.

[Fran Guidry]

Here comes the drama-queen....

I really wanted to make my dad sound rich and warm and his very best. I bought a used Neumann TLM103 thinking that was the best I could afford. Then I learned I needed to buy a shockmount. Of course, I don't own a studio and my environment sucks so I was looking at acoustic panels. Then the wine crate DIY VO box. Okay, no prob. Then I learn my 416 and NTG3 are no good for indoor dialogue in my apt. So, I get two Oct12s. Oh, but I need a shock mount for them too. Hey, what about a preamp too? WTF is a pre-amp?? I'm online six hours discovering how important they are. But then the $100 cables are too. I have no idea what a preamp even hooks into? Does that go before or after the mixer and the digital interface on my iMac? Or, do I just run the puppy straight into my PMD670? Or do I get a 44 magnum and end my career now? (Geez. I start out trying to do a good deed and I am getting the financial hammer. By far, I have spent more on audio, and no less about it, than any other poor slob on this forum. What's even more ironic, is that I keep on spending because, years ago, I read never to cheap out on audio. (What a jackass I am reminded endlessly that I am.) Rant over.

Anyone feeling pity for me yet? If so, I'd value your advice: What is a preamp? How do I use it with the Neumann TLM103? Can you recommend a good one that will live longer than me (smirk)? Is there a good shockmount for this mic that isn't $237? What kind of cable should I use? Do I need a pop filter and what kind do you recommend? What about a digital interface or a mixer? Do I need them too? Let's just assume I am not using my PMD670 field recorder, but an iMac instead. Does this impact the items needed? Or, is there an portable solution that I can use for multiple situations?

Now, once I've blown my wad buying all these things, how do I make use of it? (This is where I am told I should hire pros.)

I am hoping this post inspires those of you who think you can DIY all the time, that it is possibly smarter and cheaper to hire a pro. (I just happen to be a schmo....)

I did a little demo of the impact of 2 broadband absorber panels: http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2011/...adband-panels/

The M-Audio DMP3 is a very useful, reasonably priced clean 2 channel preamp with switchable phantom power and metering.

You don't need stupid overpriced fantasy cables.

Rycote Lyre mounts are now available for LD mics, the Invision Studio series: http://www.reddingaudio.com/rycote-invision-studio.php

DIY recording does take some learning and some experience, and it's complicated by a fierce gale of bad incorrect poor wrong advice on many topics. But mindful, logical experience brings improvement.

Perhaps a more linear explanation of your goals and current equipment would make suggestions easier to develop and more useful to you.

Fran

[John Willett]

Here comes the drama-queen....

I really wanted to make my dad sound rich and warm and his very best. I bought a used Neumann TLM103 thinking that was the best I could afford. Then I learned I needed to buy a shockmount. Of course, I don't own a studio and my environment sucks so I was looking at acoustic panels. Then the wine crate DIY VO box. Okay, no prob. Then I learn my 416 and NTG3 are no good for indoor dialogue in my apt. So, I get two Oct12s. Oh, but I need a shock mount for them too. Hey, what about a preamp too? WTF is a pre-amp?? I'm online six hours discovering how important they are. But then the $100 cables are too. I have no idea what a preamp even hooks into? Does that go before or after the mixer and the digital interface on my iMac? Or, do I just run the puppy straight into my PMD670? Or do I get a 44 magnum and end my career now? (Geez. I start out trying to do a good deed and I am getting the financial hammer. By far, I have spent more on audio, and no less about it, than any other poor slob on this forum. What's even more ironic, is that I keep on spending because, years ago, I read never to cheap out on audio. (What a jackass I am reminded endlessly that I am.) Rant over.

Anyone feeling pity for me yet? If so, I'd value your advice: What is a preamp? How do I use it with the Neumann TLM103? Can you recommend a good one that will live longer than me (smirk)? Is there a good shockmount for this mic that isn't $237? What kind of cable should I use? Do I need a pop filter and what kind do you recommend? What about a digital interface or a mixer? Do I need them too? Let's just assume I am not using my PMD670 field recorder, but an iMac instead. Does this impact the items needed? Or, is there an portable solution that I can use for multiple situations?

Now, once I've blown my wad buying all these things, how do I make use of it? (This is where I am told I should hire pros.)

I am hoping this post inspires those of you who think you can DIY all the time, that it is possibly smarter and cheaper to hire a pro. (I just happen to be a schmo....)

A "pre-amp" is an amplifier that goes before the main amplifier.

In the case of a microphone, it brings the microphone level up to normal line level.

These are also built into a mixer - so, if your mixer has a microphone input, the pre-amp is already built into the mixer.

For a shockmount for the TLM 103, use the Rycote USM - this is only about £60, instead of the £200 odd for the Neumann one (and is actually *better* than the Neumann one).

[Steve House]

Your 416 and NTG3 would be fine indoor for VO work if you used them inside your wine crate portabooth. They would be fine indoors if you were recording a drama or a talk-show on a proper soundstage. Where they would likely give you problems is used as a boom mic in a typical residential living room because of the large amount of reflected sound that will be hitting the mic from the sides in that particular environment. Why did you get BOTH a 416 and an NTG-3? Either one is a fine mic and while there are subtle difference in their sound, they are essentially interchangeable so having both is redundent. Pick one to keep and trade the other in for a decent hyper.

Shockmounts and wind protection for your mics just come with the territory - they are a necessary part of each mic's kit to prevent handling noises from creeping into the audio. Even a studio mic used on a fixed stand such as the TLM103 in your VO setup can benefit from a shock mount to prevent vibration from people walking around the room or trucks passing by on the street outside from creeping in and becoming audible. As other have mentioned, the various Rycote lyre system mounts are about the best thing going and are quite reasonable in price.

Wind protection? Indoors? Yes indeed. Outdoors you need more than indoors but air currents from moving the mic around, ventilation systems, the talent's breathing, etc can become audible. Indoors the stock foam windscreen is probably adequate, outdoors you're often going to need something stronger. Pop screens are a good idea for mics used close in to the mouth like the 103 or a 'gun in your VO crate. You'll see them in near universal use in recording studios, broadcast studios, and announce booths.

Exotic preamps may have a place in the recording studio but IMHO are less useful in a film/video recording environment. Their basic function is to take a mic level signal and boost it to line level before passing it on to the next devices in the recording chain. Just like guitarists really take seriously the unique sonic properties of different cabinets from various manufacturers, so some performing artists and recording engineers make a big deal about the subtle differences in final sound they feel come from using the various preamps they might have in their studios. Just between you and me, I think some of those 'differences' might be more imagined than real. In the recording studio, the mic connects to a preamp which raise the level to studio line level and passes it on in turn to mixing console input channel strips and/or other signal processing devices like reverbs, etc. But stand-alone preamps are less useful in a field recording situation. While you certainly need good clean preamps in order to get good clean sound, as pointed out by other posters, preamps are actually built into any device that has mic level inputs. Your DSLR camera has a preamp, albeit not a particularly good one. But any good quality field mixer is going to come with decent preamps as part of the package - that's one reason for buying a quality mixer in the first place. Quality recorders will also have decent preamps on their mic inputs, rendering a stand alone preamp redundant - your Marantz's own preamps are probably just fine for your uses. Putting a dedicated preamp in front of such a mixer or recorder really does nothing except add to the expense and give you one more thing to forget to set properly. One of the reasons Sound Devices and other professional market manufacturers mixers and recorders are so pricey is the level of care they put into the design and build of their internal preamps.

Recording to your iMac, you ask what do you need? First what are you recording with it, your Dad's recollections as you film him speaking, or voice over and narration? How many mics are you going to have live at any one time, ie how many channels do you need to record at once? The optimum setup may be a little different depending on application. Ant then there are "needs" and there are "nice to haves" to consider as well.

I'd forget about a stand-alone preamp. A good mixer will have good preamps. A good interface will have good preamps. Adding another dedicated preamp in front of either of those (and you'd need one preamp per mic in use, don't forget) just adds cost and complexity without buying you any advantages.

Yoiu need some way of converting the mic signal into digital files in the computer. You can use the built-in soundcard or you can use an external interface to do it. "Interface" is just a fancy term for "soundcard." Standard soundcards are usually pretty minimal (for example, not offering phantom power for the mic) and being internal they're not in the best environment from an electrical noise standpoint. The soundcards preamps are often rather marginal so a mixer or preamp between the mic and the card would be a good idea if you go that route. So most of the time an external interface is the way to go for pro level work. There are bunches of good quality interfaces on the market, your choice depends on how many recording and output channels you want, whether you want to connect to your computer through USB or Firewire, and what other features you want to have along with it. Because the interface replaces your soundcard for output as well as input, it also provides a proper connection point for your monitor speakers instead of kludging the connection through the headphone jack as you said in an ealier post that you had done. As I said before, interfaces provide mic inputs with phantom power, level controls, often have high pass filters, etc so with your mic in the VO crate, a good interface, and your computer with decent DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) software installed you're set to record - that's all you really NEED and assuming you've selected good quality mics (which you have so far) and interface you're all set for fully professional level work. From there you can add bells and whistles to your hearts content. If you want more control and more flexibility you could add a mixing console to the equipment list ... not necessary, won't improve the quality any, but gives you more options and perhaps more convenience. You could add outboard signal processing - de'essing, compression, etc - if you wanted , not necessary, but gives you options. But the basic needs for VO are microphone with stand, shock mount, and pop screen, cable, interface, computer, and DAW software.

Don't buy $100 audiophool mic cables - wire is wire and the $25 cables are just fine. While the super cheap stuff is garbage, Canare, Mogami, or Belden cable with Neutrik or Switchcraft connectors is as good as it gets.

[olindacat]

It's funny how an insertion or injection of humor can bring about such reactions. No. I wont be buying any pistols soon, sorry guys. John & Fran: many thanks for being class acts and offering some constructive advice. Richard: I paid $650, not $1000, but I do appreciate the other helpful comments you have given me over the years, including advice on what I should buy (which I now own) and what to do about my set-up (which you have seen photos of in past years, only now my location has changed).

I own three mics, which I use for on-golf-course dialogue/interviews: A Shure Beta 58A for handheld; a G3 100 wireless set-up for that mic as well as a set-included lav; a Sennheiser MKH616; and a Rode NTG3. The latter two were intended for use both in- and outdoors, but mostly out, in high winds. As a result, I own a blimp and dead rat or cat. I have one boom. Two cables. One recorder: a PMD650. I also own a Beachtek (2 channel) Box to run the mics into the camera, only the camera has AGC (automatic gain control, and isn't always reliable), hence the recorder. That's it. I have used this gear for three years to produce golf course promotional videos and a TV show in Hawaii. It has worked fine, even indoors in marble lined lobbies in clubhouses.

But, I know my set-up wasn't going to do for my dad. I got four autopoles and have some light/sound blocking material from a set-shop and was going to cordon off a 10' x 10' room for a Charlie Rose-like appearance. I felt this would at least dampen the reflective environment somewhat. I will pay down some carpet as well. Then light and boom, in stands, whenever I can't hold the boom myself.

There are three principal actors and I am among them, operating three cameras connected to a switcher and run through a monitor. The audio will be dialogue in interview-like fashion as well as my father narrating by reading his autobiography. This reading of his autobiography was to be done in the best way possible, but as he is 85 and unable to walk, and unwilling to go in a wheelchair, it took 'studio' out of the ballpark for me. He is also uncomfortable around others, so even a pro coming here wouldn't be easy, and he has a lot of reading to do. I have seen many a VO box built on YouTube and figured I could do the same. But, never having owned or used a hyper, I did some looking around: only for the mic, that is.

I also contemplated tying the recordings directly to my iMac, and wondered aloud in a nearby and recent post about what people were doing for their own set-ups. (I have an all-Mac office and produce print magazines, among other things.)

The 'studio' is four facing walls, 600 sq ft, 12' high ceilings, two walls are all-glass, and the floors and hardwood. All tables and desks are stainless steel. There is nothing acoustically appealing about the 'location' but the rest of the floor is very private off-limits for cameras and such, as he and his wife like their privacy so my apt/studio is it, except for scenes in his own room, which is almost a mirror image of my studio, only it is half the size.

KI have a limited timeline: six weeks to produce. I leave for Hawaii after that and am to be consumed in many other jobs/projects that pay for 2013. I worry he may not be able to talk by the time I get home. Yes, I am in a frenzy. Some call it a disconnect from reality: I call it total frustration tinged with humor. (Must be my liberal politics.)

The Neumann TLM103 mic I bought, used, is a fine mic. I know it gets blasted my many, but I like its sound for my father. Only time will tell. I just never owned one and, of course, was shocked at the price of the shock mount. I have pres in my cameras and in my PMD670, but was reading about tubed pres and how important they were in conjunction with this mic. I saw they were on rack systems, which is a whole different ballgame. I was exhausted when I wrote this post, very wee hours, trying to get things ready for the old guy next week. I apologize if my humor offended anyone in this forum. (I know there are some sensitive people here, esp in the audio field.)

So, I am either going to rough it and support the economy and learn the hard way, which is how I have survived in business for myself for the last 30 years, or I'll get lucky and benefit from the advice of friendly form members like John, Fran and (sometimes) Richard. As for David: well, he's another story ;-)

[olindacat]

Always there, always a help: thank you Steve. Notes below:

Why did you get BOTH a 416 and an NTG-3? Either one is a fine mic and while there are subtle difference in their sound, they are essentially interchangeable so having both is redundent. Pick one to keep and trade the other in for a decent hyper.

I got both separately and know they are very uch alike as I wanted consistency and have to cover sometimes four people at same time so two was best, also good for when both subjects are sitting too far away from each other.

Shockmounts and wind protection for your mics just come with the territory - they are a necessary part of each mic's kit to prevent handling noises from creeping into the audio. Even a studio mic used on a fixed stand such as the TLM103 in your VO setup can benefit from a shock mount to prevent vibration from people walking around the room or trucks passing by on the street outside from creeping in and becoming audible. As other have mentioned, the various Rycote lyre system mounts are about the best thing going and are quite reasonable in price.

And so you have just saved me quite a bit, thanks!

Wind protection? Indoors? Yes indeed. Outdoors you need more than indoors but air currents from moving the mic around, ventilation systems, the talent's breathing, etc can become audible. Indoors the stock foam windscreen is probably adequate, outdoors you're often going to need something stronger. Pop screens are a good idea for mics used close in to the mouth like the 103 or a 'gun in your VO crate. You'll see them in near universal use in recording studios, broadcast studios, and announce booths.

Does it matter what kind? Will the $20 version suffice? 6"

Exotic preamps may have a place in the recording studio but IMHO are less useful in a film/video recording environment. Their basic function is to take a mic level signal and boost it to line level before passing it on to the next devices in the recording chain. Just like guitarists really take seriously the unique sonic properties of different cabinets from various manufacturers, so some performing artists and recording engineers make a big deal about the subtle differences in final sound they feel come from using the various preamps they might have in their studios.

My brother has been Lady Gag's lead guitarist for years. I know what you mean.

Just between you and me, I think some of those 'differences' might be more imagined than real. In the recording studio, the mic connects to a preamp which raise the level to studio line level and passes it on in turn to mixing console input channel strips and/or other signal processing devices like reverbs, etc. But stand-alone preamps are less useful in a field recording situation. While you certainly need good clean preamps in order to get good clean sound, as pointed out by other posters, preamps are actually built into any device that has mic level inputs. Your DSLR camera has a preamp, albeit not a particularly good one. But any good quality field mixer is going to come with decent preamps as part of the package - that's one reason for buying a quality mixer in the first place. Quality recorders will also have decent preamps on their mic inputs, rendering a stand alone preamp redundant - your Marantz's own preamps are probably just fine for your uses. Putting a dedicated preamp in front of such a mixer or recorder really does nothing except add to the expense and give you one more thing to forget to set properly. One of the reasons Sound Devices and other professional market manufacturers mixers and recorders are so pricey is the level of care they put into the design and build of their internal preamps.

The first piece of audio equipment I ever bought was a SD702T, but it seemed like overkill for me so I unloaded it. I have done fine with my baby kit. I wanted to up it a bit for my dad's sake. Thanks for putting me at ease regarding the pres.

Recording to your iMac, you ask what do you need? First what are you recording with it, your Dad's recollections as you film him speaking, or voice over and narration? How many mics are you going to have live at any one time, ie how many channels do you need to record at once? The optimum setup may be a little different depending on application. Ant then there are "needs" and there are "nice to haves" to consider as well.

Three people, three mics were the original plan, but as you mentioned in my other thread, I could possibly do with two. There will be the interview-type set-ups, where we are sitting around, or in the hallway, or on the elevator, talking. Then there will be him reading, as a narrator.

I'd forget about a stand-alone preamp. A good mixer will have good preamps. A good interface will have good preamps. Adding another dedicated preamp in front of either of those (and you'd need one preamp per mic in use, don't forget) just adds cost and complexity without buying you any advantages.

Thanks.

Yoiu need some way of converting the mic signal into digital files in the computer. You can use the built-in soundcard or you can use an external interface to do it. "Interface" is just a fancy term for "soundcard." Standard soundcards are usually pretty minimal (for example, not offering phantom power for the mic) and being internal they're not in the best environment from an electrical noise standpoint. The soundcards preamps are often rather marginal so a mixer or preamp between the mic and the card would be a good idea if you go that route. So most of the time an external interface is the way to go for pro level work. There are bunches of good quality interfaces on the market, your choice depends on how many recording and output channels you want, whether you want to connect to your computer through USB or Firewire, and what other features you want to have along with it. Because the interface replaces your soundcard for output as well as input, it also provides a proper connection point for your monitor speakers instead of kludging the connection through the headphone jack as you said in an ealier post that you had done. As I said before, interfaces provide mic inputs with phantom power, level controls, often have high pass filters, etc so with your mic in the VO crate, a good interface, and your computer with decent DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) software installed you're set to record - that's all you really NEED and assuming you've selected good quality mics (which you have so far) and interface you're all set for fully professional level work. From there you can add bells and whistles to your hearts content. If you want more control and more flexibility you could add a mixing console to the equipment list ... not necessary, won't improve the quality any, but gives you more options and perhaps more convenience. You could add outboard signal processing - de'essing, compression, etc - if you wanted , not necessary, but gives you options. But the basic needs for VO are microphone with stand, shock mount, and pop screen, cable, interface, computer, and DAW software.

I have GarageBand in the Mac OS, and then was looking at Avid and Pro Tools. I know PT is an industry standard. Do you know if the MBox would suffice? http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PTMboxPro

Don't buy $100 audiophool mic cables - wire is wire and the $25 cables are just fine. While the super cheap stuff is garbage, Canare, Mogami, or Belden cable with Neutrik or Switchcraft connectors is as good as it gets.

Amazing. So many differing POVs. I have read about the Canares for years, and own two. I'll stay consistent.

Thanks, Steve....

[David W. Jones]

I'd have to double check, but I think I own more microphones than guns ;)
Although I do wear a S&W .45ACP more often than I do a Sennheiser MKH60.