Client that doesn't want what he wants... need some guidance.

[Ryan-Guy]

This is a plea for help to all you that have business experience dealing with clients that have no idea what they want.

Let me start by saying that that I've been shooting professionally for about 3 years now, but up until now all of my gigs have been for the most part simple camera operation. Long story short I've gotten the attention of a some serious clients from some of my work. This is my first real gig thats entirely mine.

To give some context, we made a very interesting mini-doc about a girl skydiving that had a very moving story. This is what caught the client's attention.

Now here's the dilemma, an executive of a tv station wants us to make a 4-5 minute piece about a shopping center. He doesn't want it to be an infomercial, he wants a story that will be interesting to the viewer. He wants the narrator, but when we start coming up with ideas involving a narrator, he only wants interviews of the employees. When we start working on ideas with employees narrating, he wants a single person to follow through the center. Then its talking about the single person, and we're back to narrator. You can see where this is going. Basically everything he says he wants, when we start talking about it, he shoots them down like they were my ideas. BTW, he's not a bad guy at all.

I've never walked away from a meeting feeling so stupid in my life, while wondering if it was me or him. I've given them three ideas ranging from "safe" to "creative" that I feel would be interesting and accomplish all of their goals and would be within budget. They say that they like the the "safe" one and are going with it, yet when he starts talking about that version, he perfectly describes my "creative" version. I know that my descriptions are not vague at all, they we're written out very clearly.

Guys, I'm at a loss here. How do I convince him that my ideas will accomplish everything he wants, but with no proven track-record? If I shoot verbatim his descriptions, the project will be a disaster, which is good for no one. I really can't walk away from this, because there is so much opportunity for other work such as commercials, etc. within this network.

Maybe I'm just venting here, but I hope that you guys would understand and have some experience with this sort of thing at least once in your careers.

Thanks

[Razz16mm]

There are two approaches here. The documentary approach where you settle on a basic structure, like employee interviews, go shoot gobs of footage and interviews, then find the story and drama from the footage if it is there. Or there is the dramatic approach of defining a theme and planning a shooting script.
If you or your producer had to define a theme for this film in one sentence, what would it be? If you can't do that then it is too nebulous at this point and needs further thought.
Who is the audience? What is the message? Is it a news magazine type of story?
Maybe you need to get them to commit to shooting some interviews first to see if there is something worth pursuing. Something to hang a theme on. Story and narration would develop from the results of the interviews. But you need at least a theme in mind to even know what to ask people during the interviews. Effects of the current economy, behind the scenes life of the people, hot marketing trends, retail display design, there are many possible themes for a short piece like this. But you have to decide on one to make it work in five minutes.

Sounds like you had a first brainstorming session, good start. Do it again.
Brainstorm ideas for themes. Get your producer to do his work. Write down as many ideas for themes as the two of you can come up with. Don't pre judge. Make your producer pick a narrative theme from the list as a starting point. That is his job. Then it gets easier to plan the shoot.
If possible you should get paid for development time too.

[Hydarnes]

wanna be extra save? I depends on HOW MUCH U WANT IT. . . but If you are willing to go through any pain to get this one right (and it seems to be the case, I assume) then do this:

shoot enough footage to cover BOTH versions maybe even a third. Cut one into the "desired by TV guy" and then have one you feel is the your perfect version and send them in both. Extra work that wont get payed? ell the pay comes in later when having that TV guy tellign everyone how f***ing awesome you are and doing such a great job, going extra miles etc ^^

is that an option?

I found myself in a situation where I thought I know best how to solve a poblem cuz I knew more than the others (they were simply the guys with money or, ya know, the "boss") but I had nothing to "proof" to them to make them go "oh, well seems this guy really knows what he's talking about lets shut up and listen to him for a change . . ." so i figured I will do EXACTLY as they say PLUS have my version ready to compare. Because thhink about it that way, sometimes these kinda guys are so full of themselves that ANYTHING that looks/sounds better than their "idea" is automatically s*%t, they start nitpicking and then go "well it is ok, but not what we want" BAM. . . u are screwed. . . that is when u just started ^^ with no options no respected opinion etc. . .

so if you cant find a way to change their mind in a respectful way (even use backdoors like talking to a colleague or somethin) than all thats left is to do what they want FIRST and everything else comes second.

You still got "time" to talk or are things pretty much set in stone? Though I dont see how talking to "such a kinda guy" will get you anywhere. Your problem is obviously HIS personality.

[morgan_moore]

There seem to be basic structures to web video

-shots + music

-shots plus "hi im nigel - let me show you waht goes on here" (sypathetic reportage)

- hi im nigel from all-baloons-dot com 'all ballons are the best balloons' (advert)

-and the best is a story.. a cliff hanger

"today we are testing the biggest party baloon in our range.. will it work"

the last is the best hardest and most powerful, rarely done on the web, done in all forms on telly

id go throught some vids with the client, pick a format and shoot it

You are opening a can of worms trying to work it out affterwards - re edits re shoots , fall outs dissapointment

S

[Paul F]

This is a really difficult situation. I suspect this person has some form of OCD. OCD is caused by high anxiety. The problem is that the anxiety causes them to keep changing their mind because they are not sure of themselves or what they want due to anxiety. It may be something else, but that's been my experience. Even if you get them to sign off on an outline or script, they still won't be happy with the product. There is no winning in this case. So...

- Get him to sign off on an outline/script. He'll change his mind later, but at least you have that as something to fall back on as to why you did what you did.

- Do what Hydarnes says. Shoot 2 or 3 different versions and hope one of them satisfies the client.

[mcgeedigital]

Charge hourly.

Get a contract.

Let him make as many changes as he wants.

Charge accordingly.

Stupid should be painful.

[Barry_Green]

At some point, and as GENTLY as possible, remind them that the reason you're there in the meeting is because they love your work. So they should trust you...

And to cover your own rump, if you really want this client, I recommend evaluating if it's possible to do what Hydarnes said, and get footage that would allow you to do both versions.

And by all means, do as Paul F said, and get him to sign off on an outline & script. Not doing that would be suicide. You need to have some point of agreement, and a signed-off script with some crude sketch storyboards is infinitely better than nothing. If you're already concerned about this guy's predisposition to changing his mind, then for your own sanity you have to get him to agree, in writing, to what it is you're setting out to do. Even if the end product comes out nothing like what was agreed to, at least you'll have some sort of agreement you can point back to!

[Ryan-Guy]

Thanks guys for all the input. I just had a third meeting with one of the execs that I am more familiar with, and things turned around.

The issue stemmed from this: They believe in my work and my ability to create something good. However, it is the shopping center that is end customer, and has requested the piece. The execs need something concrete to pitch to them; something that would ease their anxiety on spending money for production. I suggested a detailed outline today coming from your guy's advice (thank you). The main guy's meeting methodology is unstructured from what I gather, and he was brainstorming in someway, which I didn't understand because I thought I was just explaining my original pitch to them before they approached the shopping center. Yet every time I engaged in his brainstorming, he reverted back to the original.

Basically I just need to make an outline that will be understood by the shopping center execs, and get them to sign off on it. They don't want me to walk in and start shooting without a detailed plan of the end result.

This shopping center is unique in that it is up against the beach, open air, and has everything for tourist. My pitch is sort of a day in the life of a shopping center, with the angle of what makes this shopping center unique. Interviewing employees and maybe a tourist or two for good measure. This is little harder though, because interviews aren't scripted. I plan to load the questions and maybe feed some answers if I don't get what I need, but you can see how this isn't science, and responses can range.

BTW this is my least favorite pitch of the three, and was bummed but not surprised when they choose it. The others were far more engaging and unique (and fun to make).

[Gary Huff]

You need to have some point of agreement, and a signed-off script with some crude sketch storyboards is infinitely better than nothing.

Best bet is to at least have the script in a format like this that explicitly spells out what happens when. Storyboards are great too, but sans those, this should be the very least that is signed off on.

[Gary Huff]

The execs need something concrete to pitch to them; something that would ease their anxiety on spending money for production.

Did they twist the end client's arm in order to get them to agree to make a commercial in the first place?