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    #11
    Senior Member squig's Avatar
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    Given that digic 5 is apparently 17x faster than digic 4 do you think it's possible that it could downsample 24fps on the fly?
    http://vimeo.com/squig GAMMA The Years of Darkness screenplay Official Selection of 2014 Beverly Hills Film Festival. Filming 2014.


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    #12
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    I think you meant downsample to 1080 and 720p? I think the limiting factor may be sensor readout speed. If not, then we'd need to know 17x faster that what baseline performance. Resampling can be very fast in GPUs, fully hardware accelerated. Don't know what they built into the Digic 5+.


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    #13
    Senior Member squig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    I think you meant downsample to 1080 and 720p?
    yeah
    http://vimeo.com/squig GAMMA The Years of Darkness screenplay Official Selection of 2014 Beverly Hills Film Festival. Filming 2014.


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    #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    ...Some folks believe sharpening in post is cheating, and that the camera should output sharp content directly...
    jcs - thank you so much for clarifying the technical details surrounding the balance between moire and aliasing. A really well-informed and well-thought out argument. A couple of thoughts -

    I don't think sharpening in post is cheating, but I do think it takes extra time - and time is money.

    I guess, for me, if the choice is (leaving color issues aside):

    1. Old Canon - unacceptable moire, sharp enough for most people
    2. New Canon - minimal moire, post shoot sharpening required
    3. Brand X - acceptable moire, acceptable aliasing, no post sharpening required

    I'll take option 3 (unless the full frame aesthetic is an absolute must have, then I'll rent).

    No offense to anyone intended, but I just don't have the time for a camera that forces me to take an extra step in post, even it takes 10 seconds (or forces me to either buy a monitor or lay down on the beach like poor Mr. Bloom :-))

    photo-2-6.jpg

    Cheers,

    Bill
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    http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com
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    #15
    Senior Member PaPa's Avatar
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    Definitely an improvement over the 5Dmark 2, but still looks pretty soft in those wides for anything that is infinity focus. Aliasing and moire is improved, but not gone. I really have been spoiled with my hacked gh2 lol.

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    #16
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    Thanks John for your contribution here, much appreciated (E :-)
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    #17
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    brunerww- if you have a camera (or cameras) that work better for you than the 5D3- makes perfect sense to use them. Dragging a sharpen preset to a sequence with all clips selected takes about 3 seconds, so if 10 seconds is your threshold, you are still good to go with this workflow

    PaPa- the wide soft comes from the Canon 16-35mm F2.8L II: it's not a sharp lens. I could probably get it sharper by stopping it down, etc. Nikon and Zeiss ($$$) have sharper ultrawides, which would work better. Where did you see moire in those videos other than perhaps one shot of the Bugatti Veyron grill. Out of the camera before sharpening, there was no aliasing or moire. I did sharpen in many clips to the point of a little aliasing. We can't have it both ways: razor sharp and alias/moire free, until perhaps we get to 4k and beyond (and high resolution display systems). As noted, adding a pleasing film grain can help with perceived resolution in the event the content creator requires zero aliasing or moire. A more technical solution for the perfectionist could be to apply a bilateral filter, which removes high frequency content but preserves edges, tuned to remove frequencies in edges near the alias limit (Nyquist), followed by a sharpen (or edge sharpen).

    Emanuel- no problem. These concepts can be applied to any camera or imagery.


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    #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    Emanuel- no problem. These concepts can be applied to any camera or imagery.
    I know John, reason enough we salute your welcome presence among us (E :-)
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    #19
    Senior Member PaPa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    brunerww- if you have a camera (or cameras) that work better for you than the 5D3- makes perfect sense to use them. Dragging a sharpen preset to a sequence with all clips selected takes about 3 seconds, so if 10 seconds is your threshold, you are still good to go with this workflow

    PaPa- the wide soft comes from the Canon 16-35mm F2.8L II: it's not a sharp lens. I could probably get it sharper by stopping it down, etc. Nikon and Zeiss ($$$) have sharper ultrawides, which would work better. Where did you see moire in those videos other than perhaps one shot of the Bugatti Veyron grill. Out of the camera before sharpening, there was no aliasing or moire. I did sharpen in many clips to the point of a little aliasing. We can't have it both ways: razor sharp and alias/moire free, until perhaps we get to 4k and beyond (and high resolution display systems). As noted, adding a pleasing film grain can help with perceived resolution in the event the content creator requires zero aliasing or moire. A more technical solution for the perfectionist could be to apply a bilateral filter, which removes high frequency content but preserves edges, tuned to remove frequencies in edges near the alias limit (Nyquist), followed by a sharpen (or edge sharpen).

    Emanuel- no problem. These concepts can be applied to any camera or imagery.
    I saw it in the shot of the jacket. It was a mix of internet compression and moire.

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    #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcs View Post
    brunerww- if you have a camera (or cameras) that work better for you than the 5D3- makes perfect sense to use them. Dragging a sharpen preset to a sequence with all clips selected takes about 3 seconds, so if 10 seconds is your threshold, you are still good to go with this workflow

    PaPa- the wide soft comes from the Canon 16-35mm F2.8L II: it's not a sharp lens. I could probably get it sharper by stopping it down, etc. Nikon and Zeiss ($$$) have sharper ultrawides, which would work better. Where did you see moire in those videos other than perhaps one shot of the Bugatti Veyron grill. Out of the camera before sharpening, there was no aliasing or moire. I did sharpen in many clips to the point of a little aliasing. We can't have it both ways: razor sharp and alias/moire free, until perhaps we get to 4k and beyond (and high resolution display systems). As noted, adding a pleasing film grain can help with perceived resolution in the event the content creator requires zero aliasing or moire. A more technical solution for the perfectionist could be to apply a bilateral filter, which removes high frequency content but preserves edges, tuned to remove frequencies in edges near the alias limit (Nyquist), followed by a sharpen (or edge sharpen).

    Emanuel- no problem. These concepts can be applied to any camera or imagery.
    How is sharpening a 5D III image better than sharpening a 5d ii with AA filter image if both only resolve under 800 lines in the raw file? Is the argument that the 5d III resolves 900+ lines, but appears soft due to no aliasing? Because if that were the case, the raw clips would still have more visible detail... and that isn't apparent in the clips being posted. Sharpening exaggerates detail that is already there. I'm not seeing that initial detail.
    Last edited by HansSteinert; 03-25-2012 at 02:36 PM.


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