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    #81
    Moderator David Jimerson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluoro View Post
    Do you not care about trying to make the world as just as one can? Maybe if your brother was the top ranked clean rider in one of those TdFs that Lance won, you would have a stronger opinion on whether it's important or not?
    An agenda to "prove" something you want to be true, whether or it is or not, is many things, but it is not "just."

    It's about far more than just one cyclist who may or may not have doped.
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    #82
    cool little "title" Charli's Avatar
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    Remember ancient times when it really was all about skill? I would say we should go back to those times, but uh, the ancient Greeks in the Olympiad I think strangled the loser, and the ancient Mayans - the loser had his head cut off.

    Well, at least you knew the winner was THE winner. First time I heard about steroids was accusations against the women's East German's swim team back in the day. They were built like men. Sigh.
    "Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
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    #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gord.T View Post
    Bottom line is after hundreds of passed tests and countless court accusations he said F-it. Not worth it.
    He said f-it because he had absolutely no leverage in a totally one sided, kangaroo court, arbitartion hearing.

    Testimony from secret witnesses who didn't have to reveal their identities, some asshole that was hot on his ass to nail Lance, by using the testimony of known liars who previously insisted they were innocent of doping to raise literally $3 million dollars for their defense, then turn around and "confess" when he is washed up because he is pissed off at the way he is being trested ....

    Don't get me wrong - I 100% opposed to doping in sports - because it causes athletes to damage their bodies, and risk their lives, to continue to compete in their profession. No-one should face that pressure.

    In the 1980's and 90's, there were at least 18 Dutch cyclists that died from heart attacks from using EPO to create more red blood cells and "thicken" the blood.

    I am a former semi-pro cyclist and triathlete who followed the sport very closely. I used to work out 6 hours a day, coached a Pro-Am team, etc. I was never "good enough" that I needed or wanted to dope. Hell, I didn't know what sudafed or tylenoll were!


    BUT EVERY MAJOR CYCLIST OF THE PAST 20 YEARS HAS EITHER BEEN BANNED FOR DOPING, OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH DOPING, UP TO 2010. The list is huge, with major, major player being caught and banned.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...n_cycling#1997

    But they got a 2 year ban, came back, started winning again. And the ban is based on hard, physical eveidence at the time that they were competeing.

    Lance lived and died by the same tests and the same rules as every other rider. You can't go back and relitigate history!



    But cycling has had mandatory, any time, any place tests for many years. A leading rider had to abandon the Tour because he appeared to have lied about his where-abouts, in order to avoid a potential blood test - not because he was caught doping.

    In comparison, the whine that "testing would violate the players rights" in baseball, etc. is just a thin, slimy smokescreen. Even the Olympics were 15 years behind the anti-doping methods used in cycling.

    What I object to is this "prosecutor" giving immunity to admitted liars, cheats, and dopers, and using a heavily unbalanced, unfair arbitartion system to railroad a cyclist because of his name recognition.

    It is a close parallel to the republican obsession with impeaching Bill Clinton. Someone tries to turn a parking ticket into a death penalty case, while gathering a group of robbers, rapists, and murders as his main chorts and confidantes.

    Cheers!
    Michael
    Last edited by unadog; 08-26-2012 at 08:03 PM.


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    Central to Armstrong’s downfall was Floyd Landis, a former teammate who was stripped of his title from the 2006 edition of the Tour after testing positive for testosterone and losing an arbitration battle with USADA. Landis later served a two-year ban, confessed to doping and accused Armstrong, sparking a federal grand jury fraud investigation that ended earlier this year without charges.

    Landis himself became the focus of a grand jury investigation following his 2010 confession, as federal prosecutors in San Diego explored whether Landis committed fraud in 2006 and 2007 while raising hundreds of thousands for a legal defense fund. Those prosecutors recently offered Landis a deferred prosecution agreement — a deal in which charges against him will be dropped if he pays back investors in the Floyd Fairness Fund.


    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/mo...#ixzz24iAOwvpI


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    Quote Originally Posted by Charli View Post
    Remember ancient times when it really was all about skill? I would say we should go back to those times, but uh, the ancient Greeks in the Olympiad I think strangled the loser, and the ancient Mayans - the loser had his head cut off.

    Well, at least you knew the winner was THE winner. First time I heard about steroids was accusations against the women's East German's swim team back in the day. They were built like men. Sigh.
    In the Ancient Mayan times, it was the winner who was sacrificed.


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    #86
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    Other cases of doping, and how they were resolved:

    Richard Virenque of France was ejected from the Tour deFrance on 17 July 1998 with the entire Festina team. On 24 October 2000, headmitted to doping at the 1998 Tour de France but on 22 December 2000, hewas cleared by the French court.On December 30, 2000 the Swiss cyclingfederation gave him a nine-month ban and a 4,000 Swiss franc fine.



    Bo Hamburger becomes the first rider to test positive for EPO under a new system introduced by the UCI in 2001. Hamburger was later acquitted by the Danish Sports Federation after irregularities in the handling of Hamburger's B sample analysis. Hamburger denied ever taking any banned substances, but in 2007 he published a book and revealed that he took EPO from 1995 to 1997

    David Fuentes of the US tested positive for an anabolicsteroid at the Redlands Bicycle Classic. He protested the USADA andcontroversially raced, and won, during this protest period. He was ultimatelyfound guilty and sentenced to a two year suspension that included the year of protestin which he raced and won. He was never ordered to return any of his winnings

    On 6 February the Court of Arbitration for Sport handedAlberto Contador a two year sanction for his positive test for clenbuterol atthe 2010 Tour de France. The ban means Contador will lose race resultsdating back to and including the 2010 Tour de France. The ban ended on August5th 2012, allowing him to ride in the 2012 Vuelta a EspaŮa.
    Last edited by unadog; 08-26-2012 at 08:31 PM.


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    #87
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    Convicted of doping:


    Johan Museeuw

    Tyler Hamilton

    David Millar

    Floyd Landis

    Jan Ullrich

    Ivan Basso

    Alexander Vinokourov

    Iban Mayo

    Tom Boonen

    Alessandro Petacchi

    Michael Rasmussen

    Alejandro Valverde

    Thomas Frei

    ”scar Sevilla

    Alexandr Kolobnev

    Alberto Contador

    Fršnk Schleck


    Note that the list contains about 4-5 of the **current** best professional riders in the world, who are back racing and winning right now after serving a 6 month to 2 year suspension!

    (Sorry about the links - no idea why it seems to think they are all current dvxuser forum members!)


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    Investigators will always be at least a few steps behind dopers. Lance succeeded in passing tests because he was taking minimal amounts on a strict schedule to fly under the radar and he had access to scientists who could tweak chemicals just enough to be undetectable, or at least raise enough ambiguity to avoid a problem.

    It will always be like this. Sadly, I think the answer is to simply stop testing and legalize doping. The public wants faster and stronger anyway, right? Actually, replace "wants" with "needs." I mean, do you really think professional football players today are naturally so much bigger than their predecessors?

    What makes a great athlete? Heredity and environment. Access to chemicals is simply part of one's environment. Looking at it just in terms of available resources, how is it different from, say, access to nutritious food while growing up?




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    #89
    Senior Member snowleopard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unadog View Post
    He said f-it because he had absolutely no leverage in a totally one sided, kangaroo court, arbitartion hearing.
    "One sided, kangaroo court." These are Lance's words. If you share that same believe, what do you base that thinking on?
    Testimony from secret witnesses who didn't have to reveal their identities.
    Before arbitration? You are correct. During arbitration, not so. Don't collapse the issue. I'll be shocked if in the arbitration for Bruyneel, Del Moral and Marti the witness names are not revealed. USADA sought to keep the names private until arbitration because of potential witness intimidation. They used the example of Armstrong's altercation and attempted intimidation of Tyler Hamilton during the FDA investigation, and other comments he had made to others.

    Some asshole that was hot on his ass to nail Lance,
    You mean Travis Tygart? And you base this theory of yours on what exactly? I believe Tygart went after Armstrong just as he has the others, because of cheating through doping.

    by using the testimony of known liars who previously insisted they were innocent of doping to raise literally $3 million dollars for their defense, then turn around and "confess" when he is washed up because he is pissed off at the way he is being trested ....
    You are referring to Landis.

    So, what do you think about George Hincapie, Levi Leipheimer or Jonathan Vaughters reasons for testifying? Are they liars too? USADA said there were over a dozen witnesses ready to talk. I imagine the rest of the names will come out soon enough, if not in the Bruyneel, Del Moral or Marti hearing.

    Don't get me wrong - I 100% opposed to doping in sports - because it causes athletes to damage their bodies, and risk their lives, to continue to compete in their profession. No-one should face that pressure.
    And yet, you have no problem supporting Armstrong, who many have said not only doped, but pressured others into doing the same, which also was set to come out in the arbitration. Fascinating.

    BUT EVERY MAJOR CYCLIST OF THE PAST 20 YEARS HAS EITHER BEEN BANNED FOR DOPING, OR CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH DOPING, UP TO 2010. The list is huge, with major, major player being caught and banned.
    And your point is...? Therefore we shouldn't look into Armstrong's doping because past tests didn't catch him at the time? Do you feel the same way about DNA tests convicting, or overturning convictions of criminals?

    What I object to is this "prosecutor" giving immunity to admitted liars, cheats, and dopers, and using a heavily unbalanced, unfair arbitartion system to railroad a cyclist because of his name recognition.
    Again, you base this on what exactly? They are railroading him because of his name alone? You base this on what? Your opinion? And why are all these people liars? Hincapie, Vaughters, Zabriskie, Andreu, O'Reilly, Mike Anderson, etc. etc. etc. And why exactly do you think this still makes an arbitration hearing unbalanced? It is well known that there is an incredibly amount of false negatives in testing. The vast majority of testing over the last 20 years failed to catch dopers time and time again. And that was balanced?

    It is a close parallel to the republican obsession with impeaching Bill Clinton. Someone tries to turn a parking ticket into a death penalty case, while gathering a group of robbers, rapists, and murders as his main chorts and confidantes.
    Fascinating comparison.

    Since you selectively quoted from the NY Daily news, I'll simply offer a link to a piece I think gets it pretty close from that same paper.


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    #90
    Senior Member snowleopard's Avatar
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    Curious if anyone read the USADA report on their ban of Armstrong, and if you'd like to comment on it?

    I stand by what I wrote before, and believe the report to be factual and the decision just.


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