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    Did the F3 cause Red to rethink the Scarlet S35?
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    Senior Member Duke M.'s Avatar
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    "The Scarlet S35 is now called EPIC Light. The features have changed as has the price. I'll update in the next two weeks.

    Jim"


    Are they going to up the price and increase the features?

    I'm getting the impression that the Red Camera company isn't going to be catering to the low end market at all.


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    Senior Member Mike McNeese's Avatar
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    Interesting.

    Changing the name won't really make a difference - just confuse a bunch of people.

    Changing the price could be very encouraging tho.


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    Making it some kind of Epic makes sense. Hopefully the price increase won't be past the f3.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke M. View Post
    Are they going to up the price and increase the features?
    Unquestionably. Absolutely. The Epic brand is going to be reinforced by whatever new announcement comes out... he's not going to incorporate the Scarlet S35 design to water down the Epic brand. This is about clarification and identity, just like their prior "man up" statement.

    I'm getting the impression that the Red Camera company isn't going to be catering to the low end market at all.
    They absolutely are not. They made that clear already -- with the "man up" statement. They have no interest in anything but professionals (defined by me as, those who make their living with the equipment, and who depend on it for their livelihood... which inherently rules out the casual/hobbyist types). They intend to make their products reasonably priced, but they are certainly not going to reach down outside of the professional arena.

    I'm not using the term "professional" as a pejorative against anyone. Certainly there are amateurs and hobbyists who can produce work on par with or superior to many "professionals". But a professional is one who is engaged in a profession, hence it is their full time job and they depend on it for their livelihood. That is the person Red has said they are catering to.

    Did the F3 cause them to rethink the Scarlet S35? Possibly. I'll tell you, the F3, while getting somewhat of a mixed reception, seems to me to be the most interesting product Sony has released since the original PD150. So yeah, I would think Red has had to rethink some things. Although, frankly, I think the stage of releasing Epic from development has been what's caused Red to rethink things, because now finally they can. The all-encompassing development cycle has finally eased up, so they've likely freed themselves to think of the next task, and I bet Scarlet/Scarlet S35/Epic Light has been a major topic of discussion. And I think they got it right. Scarlet S35 has always seemed like a mistake to me, in terms of "it's going to be too good for too cheap", which means that it would turn a potential $28,000 customer into a $10,000 customer, and that didn't seem like it was in their best interest. Now, reclassifying it under the Epic brand, they've drawn a clear line of distinction between the 2/3" products and the cinema-sized products. And yes, I fully expect that Scarlet S35 is going to improve and grow up, it will have a revised feature set to at least match everything the Sony offers, and its price will go northward.
    Last edited by Barry_Green; 11-26-2010 at 09:03 AM.


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    Senior Member kwoff's Avatar
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    I never believed that Red was going to release a camera at the initial price point announced for the Scarlet, and had serious doubts about the subsequently announced interations of the Scarlet, and now it appears to be official. I agree with Barry that this latest announcement indicates that the whole concept of the Scarlet is essentially abandoned, but again this is no surprise. I try not to spend to much time on Red's annoying marketing hype until they actually have shipping products.


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    Senior Member Duke M.'s Avatar
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    What I think really may be happening is that although the scarlet fixed is somewhat modular its only about 80% the same as the Epic. If they wait to get the Epic done, then the Scarlet fixed, then the Scarlet 2/3" as they originally announced the market may be pretty saturated by m4/3 to S35 sized sensors.

    The other thing is I don't think the Epic is as far along as people assume from that pronouncement. Jim lurks around the boards and probably feels pressured by all these developments.

    However, if they make the S35 closer to the Epic it will make a much shorter development cycle by simply not crippling an Epic as much. At the same time they can justify a higher price and not loose as much market share. This way they can avoid undercutting the Epic with a low price S35. Ta da! Instant Epic Light.


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    I never believed that Red was going to release a camera at the initial price point announced for the Scarlet, and had serious doubts about the subsequently announced interations of the Scarlet, and now it appears to be official. I agree with Barry that this latest announcement indicates that the whole concept of the Scarlet is essentially abandoned, but again this is no surprise. I try not to spend to much time on Red's annoying marketing hype until they actually have shipping products.
    You know what's cool? The "gap" that Scarlet will no longer "fill"...is being filled by other Products. AF100, Sony's new series that was just annouced, and more to come for sure. So....yes...they're out....but others are now in.


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    Senior Member Mike McNeese's Avatar
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    I be surprised if they don't completely scrap the 2/3" Scarlet.

    Most certainly, a price hike is going to be coming for the newly-named Epic Lite. But, what other features can they stick on the Lite that won't get it too close to what the full-blown Epic will offer?

    I mean, I'd they're raising the price, they have to increase performance/features. But they ether be careful or they will get it too close to Epic, and still cut into sales. Guess I'm really doubting this move by the RED gang.


    Gives me a little more certainty that the F3 is the right cam for me.


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    Senior Member Duke M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry_Green View Post
    Unquestionably. Absolutely. The Epic brand is going to be reinforced by whatever new announcement comes out... he's not going to incorporate the Scarlet S35 design to water down the Epic brand. This is about clarification and identity, just like their prior "man up" statement.
    It is about branding, but ultimately will throw away market share.

    A large part of the original allure of the Scarlet sisters was that they would allow non-Hollywood insiders (read everyday Joes) to be able to take an innovative cinema camera to the dance at a point they could afford. This made the Scarlets as rabidly popular as a nymphomaniac at a high school dance.

    However, as the Scarlets grew up, innovative was redefined to include the low cut blouse of the large sensor cinema cameras. Now if the Scarlets get rebranded as gold diggers and they may end up with insiders like Martin Sheen, or very few Joes asking them to dance.

    (Yes I'm being facetious.)

    The Red one claims a signal to noise ratio at greater than 66 dB and claims 11.3 stops. The F3 claims 63db and greater than 11 stops, with greater light sensitivity than a 5DMk3. (Epic is 18 stops but costs $28k for a brain, so not the same category.)

    From Allister Chapman:
    "Most digital cinema projectors have less than 10 stops of lattitude (SMPTE specify 9 stops for cinema projection) and domestic and even many professional monitors struggle to achieve 6 stops. Our eyes only have an instantaneous 13 to 14 stop range. So, given that to avoid flat, washed out pictures the dynamic range must be reduced from the 11 or more stops captured in camera to a more sensible 6 to 9 stops for presentation with current methods (even for film-out 10 stops would be enough), why do we need 16 stops?"
    Last edited by Duke M.; 11-26-2010 at 12:47 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike McNeese View Post
    I be surprised if they don't completely scrap the 2/3" Scarlet.
    I agree, I think the 2/3'' idea was dead the second that cheap S35 size sensors hit the market. Think about it, by the time they'd actually even get to producing the 2/3'' the market will be flooded with S35 sensor cameras. Theres no point in going backwards for a company who has always been in front. I could possibly see the 2/3'' bodys being used for 3D applications, but then what happened to their "3D rig" they showed... I think the only thing that would save the 2/3'' Scarlet cameras would be to make them effortless in syncing for 3D type applications. If they made the fixed lens 2/3'' completely 3D synced with a cable for everything to work together with no setup, including lens sync for focus, then they have their nitch. People actually don't like to use S35 for 3D, and tend to lean towards the 2/3'' for greater control. This is the only spot I see scarlet filling. But even then... by the time Scarlet makes it out, I think other solutions will be there.

    I think RED really bit themselves with what they did. They took WAY too long to develop from the time they announced. It disappointed many while allowing other companies to fill the gap quickly. I do not like the way they handled the teasing and then price hikes. I understand why it happened, but doesn't mean I have to like it.

    They should have stayed with the RED One's body and just did sensor upgrades and CF module upgrades, instead of building the EPIC. They pushed away a lot of people longing for the wait. The true RED Fanboys are the only ones I see happy. Everyone else just got tired of it and went in another direction.

    To be honest $50k for a working Epic would not make me happy when something like the Alexa is on the market at the same price but yealds more of a professional profile in the film world. Specially in a world where 2k post is still pretty much king.

    who knows where sony will be on their 4k camera by then. They DO have the 4k chips now, so its a matter of what they do with them. I don't think they will make a 4k camera though, I think it will be a 3k camera from the 4k sensor, so no worry about debayering. But if its an all in one design, I think cinematographers would like that more than the - you have to buy every single piece separate including the cables - approach that RED has. Cinematographers just want the image to be beautiful, and the camera to work, we don't want to worry about what module we need to buy.


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