Thread: Sony PMW-F3

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    I for one I'm more than happy and eager to bid good riddance to the Bloody DSLR movement.

    A regular assistant of mine is threatening to rental all the DSLR's in NYC on a friday, load them in a cube van and park the van in the hudson river, just to have a little peace of mind for the following week.


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    Quote Originally Posted by dcloud View Post
    intersting stuff. now we know why dslr videos have bad moire.
    We've known that for a long time...they have an OLPF that is optimized for their stills mode (i.e. ~20MP) and not their video mode (i.e. ~2MP). A properly implemented EVF pretty much makes aliasing and moire that prevalent a thing of the past - look at the AF-100 footage, look at RED, look at Alexa.

    That "Simulation" doesn't use an OLPF for either.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Olsen View Post
    Compared to Academy 35mm film, the AF-100 has a 1.19 crop factor.

    Compared to Super35mm film, the AF-100 has a ~1.3 crop factor.

    So unless people on these "main forums" have been shooting motion pictures for years on 5DMKII or 1DS cameras, the crop factor is fairly negligible.
    It isn't negligible. I would prefer not to spend 3-4000 for a rehoused Tokina 11-16 in addition to a Red 17-50. (..however I still like/prefer the fact Panasonic chose that amazing pricepoint for a really nice camera that I'll own. Sony, I can rent later, as I can rent already Alexa and Red mx)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Alvise Tedesco View Post
    It isn't negligible.
    That's why I said fairly negligible - it's certainly nowhere near 2X. And yes...a 17mm on the RED/Alexa/F35 would be matched by a 13mm on the AF-100. If you do a lot of shooting one wides, that will amount to an extra purchase or rentals.


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    Quote Originally Posted by cgold View Post
    This is a definate competitor to the Red One, that camera is a 4K Bayer, but you lose resolution when you debayer. A good debayer will fill in the gaps pretty well, and the Red Shoots RAW to assure the debayer is as good as it can be, but still a very sharp 1080P isn't that much lower resolution then a RED 1. If the EX1 (or any 3 chip camera with full raster sensors) counted resolution like DSLR's or the RED does then they would also be 4K cameras.
    This is not the place for an argument, but the F35 with it's stripe sensor shows horizontal chroma moire issues from such a pattern and strong vertical aliasing. At high details, the red, green and blue channels don't align, being effectively 1/3 of a pixel out of alignment from each other.

    You may think that your sharp 1080p is not "that" much lower than R1, but it's actually a plainly visible difference between an R1 and an F35 under cinema projection conditions, not just pixel-peeping. It's not just visible are greater fine detail, but superior MTF at lower levels of detail too.

    At RED we don't count resolution - we measure it. And we don't count aliased detail as resolution either. You can go back through this forum and my posts and find the original ones where people asked what the measured resolution of a R1 would be (long before the camera was produced) and the answer I gave was conservative and has been improved upon.

    I'm very much looking forwards to pointing an F3 at some test charts to see what it's made of.

    Graeme
    www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP
    www.red.com - RED - 4k Digital Cinema Camera


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    Sony's Q67 is hilarious. After complaining about Bayer Pattern sensors in digital cinema cameras, they magically think that rotating a Bayer Pattern CFA through 45degrees somehow makes it better. Of course, there's nothing wrong with a Bayer Pattern CFA in the first place, as Sony's DSLR division seem to realize. When you look at Sony's "Simulation" image, there's two things you've got to notice - one, that there is no OLPF in their simulation (and all practical digital cinema cameras use an OLPF as a necessary part of the imaging system) - and two, that their Q67 is using 17.7mp compared to their Bayer example of 8.8mp. The Q67 is basically using twice as many pixels. Talk about fair comparison!!!!!

    Now, for their "Full RGB" solution, they illustrate with the famous RGB Trinitron stripe pattern that they use in the F35. At high levels of detail, the RGB Stripe pattern produces rainbow patterns due to the lack of alignment between the three channels. This is plainly visible. And because they use inadequate OLPF filtering, there is a strong luma aliasing vertically, which shows up on actors clothing and other fine detail in the scene.

    The Bayer Rotated 45degrees pattern has been used in consumer cameras for years. It's not new, and it's not clever.

    Using twice as many pixels on a normal Bayer sensor takes you from 4k to 5.6k sensor and gives about 4.3k measured luma resolution. Using Sony's % measurement scheme 4.3k is 115% the area of 4k, and the measured chroma resolution will be 2.8k, which is 49% the area of 4k. (115+49+49)/3 = 71%. I guess we now can call Bayer to be Q71, which sounds 4% better than Q67 to me......

    Now because from the visual description of the Q67 pattern, you only have 4k x 2k worth of greens, you won't be able to achieve full 4k luma resolution without aliasing, or you could omit the OLPF and get full resolution and bad aliasing. That's why it's better to go with Q71 and have the greater luma resolution and downsample to 4k in software and get a sharper picture with less luma aliasing.

    Graeme
    www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP
    www.red.com - RED - 4k Digital Cinema Camera


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    Graeme,

    I always enjoy reading your insights into this sort of thing. It's always humbling.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Smith View Post
    I for one I'm more than happy and eager to bid good riddance to the Bloody DSLR movement.

    A regular assistant of mine is threatening to rental all the DSLR's in NYC on a friday, load them in a cube van and park the van in the hudson river, just to have a little peace of mind for the following week.
    But...bu..but... they used one to shoot HOUSE!
    -David Mackenzie
    ISF Calibrator / Hardware Reviewer


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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Olsen View Post
    We've known that for a long time...they have an OLPF that is optimized for their stills mode (i.e. ~20MP) and not their video mode (i.e. ~2MP). A properly implemented EVF pretty much makes aliasing and moire that prevalent a thing of the past - look at the AF-100 footage, look at RED, look at Alexa.

    That "Simulation" doesn't use an OLPF for either.
    yeah i know that too, what i didnt know was the debayering causes it on cameras without OLPF. which why gives me an idea what if dslrs use q67? would it minimize it or still be like the same? i wouldnt know.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyris View Post
    But...bu..but... they used one to shoot HOUSE!
    LOL that would be so funny if you quoted graemes' post. a totally retarded counter argument


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