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    #21
    Section Moderator Rick Burnett's Avatar
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    Couldn't agree more. If there are two things I am absolutely tired of hearing about, its; crop factor and 25p on the GH2. Don't get me wrong, understanding crop factor is important depending on your frame of reference, as I am a 7D shooter at the moment, but even I can tell you, through all the math, it will be fine. I'd like to find something between 7mm and 9mm that is at least F2.8, that said, the 7mm zoom is nice and outside or under lighting, I am sure it will be fine if I need that wide.

    The Tokina is an AWESOME lens. I own it and plan on using it on the AF100. I also agree that at least on the 7D, going past say 16mm you start getting that strange perspective distortion with closer objects that really gets pronounced and I almost NEVER see it in most movies. We use it mostly for above and below shots where we *want* the distortion.

    (And the 25p is valid, it's just, it has been discussed SO much, it's crazy)

    Ideally I wish all my lens went to F1.4, but I can live with that. I think I will be looking for something along these lines

    7mm F4
    11mm-16mm F2.8
    25mm F0.95
    30mm F1.4 (have)
    50mm F1.4 (have)
    85mm F1.4 (have)

    And of course the kit lens my 7D came with (being repaired) This is all depending on the birger mount.

    I cannot give up that 30mm Sigma, I love it!


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    #22
    Cinematography/Lighting Mod Ryan Patrick O'Hara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dop16mm View Post
    A 12mm 1.9 zeiss can be had for about $20,000 or whatever the daily rent is, I don't think the superspeeds or newer master primes go that wide.

    Everything is a compromise, but I think at the price point panasonic is offering usable solutions at the wide end.
    Master Primes go to 12mm at T/1.3
    Ultra Primes go down to 10mm I believe... T/2.1
    Zeiss Standard speeds go down to 10mm at T/2.1
    Cooke S4 Primes go down to 12mm: Cxx zoom goes to 15mm BOTH at T/2
    Summilux-C primes go down to 16mm at T/1.4
    Angeniuex Optimo Zoom goes to 15mm at T/2.6

    I've had experience with the 10mm Standard Speed... any vertical lines such as architectural elements close to the lens and at the sides has some funky distortion. 10mm is just really wide lens. Keeping the shot locked off helps hide this distortion from the audience. Pans or camera movements really lets it show.
    Last edited by Ryan Patrick O'Hara; 10-24-2010 at 03:10 PM.

    If cinematography wasn't infinite, I'm sure I would have found the end by now.


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    #23
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    Thanks Ryan for the actual rundown of the high end wide angle lenses. But I would say that most of us hoping to own an af-100 would have a hard time justifying even renting one of those let alone buying one. At around 1k, the 7-14mm is a steal, stop whining and turn a light on. And if you're regularly on big shoots invest in a PL mount in case you get a chance to try out one of them bad boys.


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    #24
    Cinematography/Lighting Mod Ryan Patrick O'Hara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dop16mm View Post
    Thanks Ryan for the actual rundown of the high end wide angle lenses. But I would say that most of us hoping to own an af-100 would have a hard time justifying even renting one of those let alone buying one. At around 1k, the 7-14mm is a steal, stop whining and turn a light on. And if you're regularly on big shoots invest in a PL mount in case you get a chance to try out one of them bad boys.
    I was simply providing information regarding an incorrect speculation you made. Nothing more. Was not trying to demean lesser lenses nor be a proponent of PL, although I am!

    Quote Originally Posted by dop16mm View Post
    stop whining and turn a light on.
    Is this in reference to the F-stop of the 7-14mm? Can you clarify?

    If cinematography wasn't infinite, I'm sure I would have found the end by now.


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    #25
    Cinematography/Lighting Mod Ryan Patrick O'Hara's Avatar
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    Also, I was incorrect. The Ultra Prime lens series in fact has a T/2.8 8mm prime lens. Interesting!

    ultra_prime_8r_01_det_03.jpg


    For those interested:

    Lens Comparison VIDEO: http://www.arri.de/?eID=registration&file_uid=3222
    Test done by Bill Bennett, ASC

    and

    Sample Shots: http://www.arri.de/?eID=registration&file_uid=3221
    Film samples by Bill Bennett, ASC
    Last edited by Ryan Patrick O'Hara; 10-24-2010 at 04:35 PM.

    If cinematography wasn't infinite, I'm sure I would have found the end by now.


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    #26
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    Thanks again Ryan I am really not trying to start a fight. I like many on this board are at the lowest of the low end and can only dream about one day trying such glass, and yes the reference was to the speed of the 7-14. It looks good for what it is and if it means adding some light so be it.

    Since you are much more in the know than I, how many of those lenses are actually in existence, as I understand it those lenses are hand made based on demand, will every rental house have absolute complete sets available, or only the ones that go out the most?

    I appreciate correction and more expert info, Barry Green must be off today. The point of this thread was not about this lens is better than that lens and so on, merely that most of us are used to dealing with camcorders with limited wide angle options, and that this camera will be no worse in that regard, and in reality offers many options at various price points, not all of which will break the bank. No a cheap 24mm full frame lens will not be very wide, but there are wide options made for this system, as well as PL options.


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    #27
    Senior Member J Davis's Avatar
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    you can't beat the tonkna 11-16mm fixed aperture f2.8 that I mentioned in my earlier post. At $600 new its a steal and its loved
    so much that glass guru's take them apart and do this (link) to them.

    There's not other lens that wide and that fast at $600.
    Like I said before - nikon mount 11-16 with a m43 to f-mount adapter with aperture controller and you are covered.
    J.Davis
    jdMAX.com


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    #28
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    can you recommend the m4/3 to f-mount adaptor with aperture controller, who makes it, what does it cost? I assume it is a little lever for manual control, I remember seeing something like this available for RED.

    But the point is if the AF-100 moves 5000 units a month, the lens manufacturers are bound to come to bat with the lenses that are in demand. Like the 11-16 tokina in native m4/3. The duclos conversion looks really nice if you need PL, but it would be nice to have the $600 version with all the electronics actually able to talk to the camera. Is there a standard 4/3 version of that lens, with the electronic adaptor, you should at least have aperture control on camera.


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    #29
    Senior Member Steve Kahn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Davis View Post
    you can't beat the tonkna 11-16mm fixed aperture f2.8 that I mentioned in my earlier post. At $600 new its a steal and its loved
    so much that glass guru's take them apart and do this (link) to them.

    There's not other lens that wide and that fast at $600.
    Like I said before - nikon mount 11-16 with a m43 to f-mount adapter with aperture controller and you are covered.
    Is there an adapter currently on the market that can control the aperture? Does the Voigtlander VM Micro 4/3 Adapter let the camera body set the f-stop because I don't see an aperture ring on the lens. Perhaps it would be smarter to wait and see how the Birger mount looks.

    From the looks of things I may either go with:
    Tokina 11-16mm f2.8 + Voigtlander 25mm f0.95
    or
    Olympus 14-35 f2


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    #30
    Cinematography/Lighting Mod Ryan Patrick O'Hara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dop16mm View Post
    Thanks again Ryan I am really not trying to start a fight. I like many on this board are at the lowest of the low end and can only dream about one day trying such glass, and yes the reference was to the speed of the 7-14. It looks good for what it is and if it means adding some light so be it.

    Since you are much more in the know than I, how many of those lenses are actually in existence, as I understand it those lenses are hand made based on demand, will every rental house have absolute complete sets available, or only the ones that go out the most?

    I appreciate correction and more expert info, Barry Green must be off today. The point of this thread was not about this lens is better than that lens and so on, merely that most of us are used to dealing with camcorders with limited wide angle options, and that this camera will be no worse in that regard, and in reality offers many options at various price points, not all of which will break the bank. No a cheap 24mm full frame lens will not be very wide, but there are wide options made for this system, as well as PL options.


    I understand there are all types of shooters on these boards. Despite the majority being in proximity of your situation, there are others who share similar circumstances as myself. Believe me, I'll be using the AF100 in certain situations and I'll be using PL glass. The information I offered was to satisfy the curiosity of those who are concerned about wide angle options. I listed those lenses as they are the ones I am most familiar with and are designed for 35mm motion picture format, a standard focal length to FoV relationship most filmmakers are familiar with. With that said, my personal opinion about this entire topic leans toward the unnecessary side of the spectrum. I own lenses from 18mm and up. I almost never use an 18mm except on occasion. My 25mm is a good wide angle lens I tend to seldom breach. Only once or twice did I have to rent a 10mm or 12mm for a special shot under very special circumstances. Although a crop difference between the AF100 and 35mm film / Super35mm film does exist, it is minimal thus I still don't think I'll ever need to venture under 18mm, but that is my opinion, past experience, and aesthetic taste speaking. Others can have different taste (and do! )Those who like the look of super wide field of views will have to concern themselves with things I do not.

    All professional cinema lenses are hand made, although there are automated processes used. Zeiss is made in Germany, Cooke in England, and Angeniuex in France. Lenses take a very long time to make and are very expensive to produce. It is based off of demand, but since the manufacturing process is delicate, slow and usually in low quantities the demand is generally there for quite some time after release of a desirable lens line. Every rental house will have 'sets' of lenses, but those sets will vary. Some lens lines are more comprehensive than others. Some lens lines, have only 6-8 focal lengths, while others, like Cooke S4's have a lens selection of 20 focal lengths! Usually a lens line will start with basics and expand over time and/or success. Believe me when I say that 99% of all rental houses and private owners do not have all 20 cooke S4's. To continue and use the S4's as an example, usually a rental house will purchase a comprehensive but realistic lens set. They will get a nice range from wide to telephoto and probably settle on focal lengths commonly preferred by cinematographers... aka the ones that go out the most. In the S4 line that would be along the lines of 18mm, 25mm, 32mm, 40 or 50mm, 75mm, 100mm, and perhaps a 135mm. The largest of the rental houses will carry many more focal lengths of S4's, but will have less of them and exclude them from their 'normal' bundle sets of lenses comprised of focal lengths very similar to the one I listed above. If a cinematographer would like to add a 12mm, 27mm, 35mm, 65mm, 300mm, or another specific focal length, that would be an add-on or substitution. You'll never see a rental house advertise a 20 lens S4 set! However, lens lines such as the Leica Summilux-C's, when first announced, were only being sold in complete sets. I'm not sure if they have since reversed this requirement, but then again the complete set is a nice 10 lens range.

    In fact, regarding very wide angle lenses, I would venture to suggest that this information could be useful to those even in smaller price brackets for the following reason: On the seldom occasions where a cinematographer would find himself in need of an extreme wide angle lens past the realm one normally shoots, say below an 18mm... you'll most likely find that many lenses out there in the consumer or prosumer photography/videography realm will exhibit distortion and other issues that plague extreme wide angle focal lengths. Lens distortion, barreling, chroma abberations and other ailments become more apparent and difficult to avoid as the focal length drops. However,
    if one could afford a day rental (between 135/day (10mm Standard speed) or up to 350/day (8mm Ultra Prime)) you'll find the extreme wide angle cinema lenses will exhibit a very big difference in distortion, barreling, abberation and other ailments found in extreme wide angle lenses.

    Thus I propose that even though many lower budget filmmakers can not afford to shoot with very expensive lens sets, the occasional extreme wide angle lens rental from a higher end lens line or manufacturer could eliminate some otherwise horrific lens faults that come to light increasingly as lens price and focal length decrease. You can find some great glass on a budget, but when it comes to extreme wide angle, it gets very difficult.
    Last edited by Ryan Patrick O'Hara; 10-24-2010 at 06:28 PM.

    If cinematography wasn't infinite, I'm sure I would have found the end by now.


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