Digital Projection - eCinema, a few questions

[redindian]

Lets say I want to shoot movies to be digitally projected in cinema halls
[Aiming for Indian market - many theaters have already started downloading movies into Qube Server and projecting it on screen without DVDs/Films !! + I am originally from India]

Aim:
I want to buy a HD(V) camera which does this best. Hone the process, and shoot movies next year

Why:
A Low Budget film shot in HD, commands both respect (in media) and also makes it easier to make a movie with a powerful desktop (F/X, editing, post).

[glow=red,2,300]And it looks spectacular on screen[/glow]
Questions:

• For movies, is there a difference between NTSC/PAL. Do movies shown in PAL countries run at 25fps as opposed to 24fps ? So 24P is irrelavent ?
  
• If HDX100, doesnt offer NTSC/PAL switch - is it a big disadvantage or a simple matter of 24P > PAL conversion
  
• '24P is universal'...meaning it can be translated to ANY format... is that true ? So I shoot here, for projecting in India...?

I donno the correct questions to ask, but am very excited... almost feeling like '96 when internet was starting...

So throw curveballs, and provide answers/alternatives if possible

Relavant Links:
Digital film projection: good and bad news
http://www.real-image.com/digital/diginews/020501.asp

Bollywood warming up to eCinema
http://www.real-image.com/digital/diginews/120401.asp

[MovieSwede]

Questions:

• For movies, is there a difference between NTSC/PAL. Do movies shown in PAL countries run at 25fps as opposed to 24fps ? So 24P is irrelavent ?
  
• If HDX100, doesnt offer NTSC/PAL switch - is it a big disadvantage or a simple matter of 24P > PAL conversion
  
• '24P is universal'...meaning it can be translated to ANY format... is that true ? So I shoot here, for projecting in India...?

The rules of shooting NTSC and PAL for Film/filmlook. Shoot 24P when you have NTSC and 25P when you have PAL. You can very easy go from 24 to 25 and 25 to 24. And yes all PAL movies goes at 25P when you watch them on DVD.

Yes 24P is very universal. All movies shoot on film is shoot 24fps.


If you live in PAL land buy PAL, In NTSC land buy NTSC. The 24/25 fps isnt really a big issue if you shoot for a cinema movie.

[Emanuel]

(A)

You can very easy go from 24 to 25 and 25 to 24.

Easy?!

«Speed up (24p --> 25p) it's not the same of the opposite (25p --> 24p); the effect will not be the same!
[there are different results - an "european time" would be speedy increase instead of the slowdown, if not the majority of the american audiences will say «this is even more boring than something I could think up!...» ]»

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread...&page=23&pp=10
Post#225

Nothing wrong with the format, but to go theatrical you have to convert. And after the conversion you'll definitely see the difference between 24p and 25p-converted-to-24p:
- There's slomo in it that makes it look less "real" (if you're going the route of slowing the footage down)
- There are sound problems: Either you get pitch-shifting artifacts (really nasty) or the voices are a quarter note deeper, which is very noticably subconsiously: Tiny men sound like Pavarotti and slender female models sound like Dame Edna (if you're going the route of slowing the footage down)
- If you're going the route of keeping the speed, at which point there are no sound issues, there are major sharpness issues or the image "jumps" every second.

That's what's wrong.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread...&page=22&pp=10
Post#220

(...)And don't get me started about either mangling the sound through a pitch converter or living with a lower pitch for everything. 24p is the way to go and if the HVX doesn't has it, I'm majorly dissapointed.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread...&page=29&pp=10
Post#282

Please explain me how do you think you gonna edit your 24p footage on your Pal equipment. I guess you better move to a NTSC land or just buy NTSC equipments.

With any NLE system. If the camera supports 24P, than it can be used to record the output from the NLE. As for monitoring, my plasma will do. It's pal and Ntsc compatible (1080/50i and 1080/60i compatible)

Have any of you tried slowing down 25p to 24p and actually seen the results? Well I have, and it sure ain't pretty. I did a promotional video on the Pal dvx100 in 25p and had to downconvert it to ntsc 24p. I had to pay $300 for the conversion in a pro post house, and the results even on hardware conversion where a lot worse than on the native 25P. So please try it first ntsc guys. Than you'll see what we are talking about.

Besides, «I think that the human (emotions) perception can change if it is playedback @ 24 or 25 frames. Even unconsciously. That's for this reason the majority says: it's non-noticeable @ "conscience" level. But we must know there are a lot of hidden issues that not even the business experts know why A succeed & B not. That's why we call it as an art form and not only as business.»

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread...&page=23&pp=10
Post#229

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about: pitch-shifting adds artifacts: either it's some "stuttering" or flanging. I've never heard a really good pitch-shifter so far. Plus this still means that you have 4% slo-mo. And we've discussed+mostly agreed before that 26fps-for-24fps adds some "otherworldy-ness" to the footage. Well imagine having this through all of your movie - it will completely change the perception. With 24fps-converted-to-25fps (the "true-and-tested method"), you have the opposite effect that everything is a bit faster, which makes the viewer more attentive - can't really compare the two. Conversions from 25p to 24p are actually much less common, and they don't look right, unfortunately. That's why it's important that the pal-hvx has 24p among other framerates, like the arri.

Cheers!

(B)

Yes 24P is very universal. All movies shoot on film is shoot 24fps.

That's why WE (I'm not alone) ask for it. I don't see any NTSC guy ask sadly for 25p/50i besides the rental ones...

[MovieSwede]

A NTSC guy dont ask for it because he has really no use for it. A European on the other hand does.

You will have to slow down or speed up no matter what if you planning to realese a movie both on the cinemas and on DVD, tv etc.

If you planning to shoot for a cinema relese. The 24/25 is gonna be the least of your worries.

[Emanuel]

A NTSC guy dont ask for it because he has really no use for it. A European on the other hand does.

Why will it be? And there isn't any solution from Panasonic unless a double purchase?

You will have to slow down or speed up no matter what if you planning to realese a movie both on the cinemas and on DVD, tv etc.

As you can see mentioned above...

If you planning to shoot for a cinema relese. The 24/25 is gonna be the least of your worries.

In that particular point, I agree with you...but it's a question of perfectionism for who sees the "cinema" as an art form where all the details are very important, OK?!

I have a challenge for you or will we have another FABNAQ?...

As you know, film has 24fps even in Europe. Currently, we european guys would have to invest in the double amount of money (get both a PAL and and NTSC camera) to enjoy true, hi-quality 24p (...) it seems, could be solved with simple software.

(...)I just bought both HVX 24p/60i and 25p/50i.

And I'll make a decision about what camcorder I must choose for my project - big screen & DVD* release equal = my business plan is unquestionable: fifty fifty 50% for big screen 50% for DVD release; and TV* broadcasting later but 'cause that is an arthouse production, this medium is forgotten in the business plan .
I only can shoot once and it's not possible shoot with both cams since we are indies. Last but not least, there isn't slow motion (well then, not all the movies have slow motion...).

What will it be better option?

* mostly PAL but also NTSC

[MovieSwede]

Fabnaq?

[Emanuel]

...

(...)Frequently Asked But Never Answered Questions (FABNAQ). Any similarity with an important event/media show @ Vegas is purely a coincidence.

[Emanuel]

If you planning to shoot for a cinema relese. The 24/25 is gonna be the least of your worries.

<PS> It's also a question (the 2nd one) of a real perception not a stupid name for a propaganda pseudo-blog [the blogosphere was the ultimate place for the freedom - as you well know as a true scandinavian that I'm sure you are - until this farce...]

[MovieSwede]

Ok if you have both cam and want filmout without slowmotion. Go with 25P. Even if the framerate isnt perfect for film you will get more resolution with the DVCPROHD codec. (1440*1080)

[Emanuel]

Thanks for your answer - I'm following your POV, MovieSwede - but I'm not so convinced...yet.

[1st problem]
What do you think about audio pitch problems - or its possibility - during the 25p -> 24p/film-out conversion?

[2nd problem]

If:

A)
25p
is not the same than, that is worst/videoisher [at least @ my eyes*]
25p -> film-out -> 25p
also
24p -> 25p
is not the same than, that is worst/videoisher than [at least @ my eyes*]
24p -> film-out -> 25p

so, do you think that:

AA)
25p (1440x1080)
will it be better than
24p (1280x1080) -> film-out -> 25p (or even 24p without frame conversion)?

or

AB)
25p (1440x1080) -> 24p only for film-out -> film-out -> 25p
will it be better than ['cause the resolution?]
24p (1280x1080) -> film-out -> 25p (or even 24p without frame conversion)?


*maybe it's not a question of numbers