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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackout View Post
    This video is god awful!!!! and this voice over sounds like this camera is aimed at middle school kids.... since when did middle school kits buy $7000.00 cameras?
    You mean like this video?

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    I AGREE


    Randy


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    Quote Originally Posted by dcloud View Post
    Read thread for more detailed explanation
    I am currently reading page 8. There are 80 pages... And I have a full time job and family. If in the meantime you could point me to the posts that specifically deal with how good AVCCam is and what datarate/color sampling will be expected from SDI Out, it would be greatly appreciated. Otherwise I'll read the whole thread throughout the week and will leave additional replies later, if needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackout View Post
    This video is god awful!!!! and this voice over sounds like this camera is aimed at middle school kids.... since when did middle school kits buy $7000.00 cameras?
    Yes the video looks absurdly childish. One feels treated like an idiot. Not to mention the workarounds they preconize.


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    Video interview with Jan Crittenden on the Panasonic AG-AF100.

    http://www.macvideo.tv/camera-techno...icleId=3229143

    Randy


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikungfu View Post
    1. How will the AG-AF100/101 deal with line skipping?
    Who knows? Who knows how any of these cameras deal with line skipping, or if they even do it at all? Sure, people suppose that they do, but it's never been confirmed by the companies, so we don't really know. All we know is that they've promised us razor-sharp pristine HD images with little to no aliasing -- so if they can do that with line skipping, bring on the line skipping. If they do it without line skipping, death to line skipping. I don't really care how they do it, I just want clean sharp results.

    2. How wil this camera deal with skew, wobble, and partial exposure issues from CMOS Rolling Shutter?
    It's six months away from release. Nobody knows the answers. We'll know once we get our hands on it. I don't expect it to be any different from any other CMOS camera. The Red One has skew, wobble, and partial exposure issues; I wouldn't expect a much-less-expensive camera to be immune to them.

    3. What about image stabilization? will it be only at the lenses?
    Again, we don't know. That hasn't been answered yet. Minolta has some in-body stabilization technology, so maybe they'll have that. Panasonic's m4/3 lineup uses in-lens stabilization, so maybe it'll be that. We'll just have to see.

    4. How about the Color sampling? Will it be 4:2:2? Even the fixed lens Canon XF305 has it... I mean, less than this ishat we expect from HDV... Not from a HD camera with a 4/3" sensor.
    The recorded color sampling will be 4:2:0, because it uses AVCHD. The HD-SDI and HDMI outputs will be 4:2:2. And the Red One is a more-than-HD camera that delivers little more than 4:2:0 color sampling. And the Sony PMW-350 is a $20,000 camera that delivers 4:2:0 color sampling. Not sure why a $6,000 camera is expected/demanded to deliver better than what the competition is doing. In fact, go make a list of all the cameras on the market that do 4:2:2 at under $30,000. Well, here, I'll save you the trouble and make a list:
    Panasonic P2 cameras
    Canon XF cameras

    That's it. Not any of the XDCAM-EX line, not any of the XDCAM-HD lineup, not the Red, not anybody. And the Canon is brand new to this; for the longest time it was a Panasonic-only thing to offer affordable HD 4:2:2.

    5. Last but not least: I think using data bitrate of 24mbps is not satisfactory on a camera of this prize released in late 2010.
    Then you don't understand bitrates very well.
    We definitely need a codec that delievers at least 50 mbps, like the Canon XF codec...
    You can use a nanoflash or kipro or whatever, and get better-than-Canon-XF-codec quality, if it's that important to you.

    Why go for AVCCAM, when Panasonic can use codecs like DVCPro or AVCintra, which could easily provide such data rates?
    We've been down that path many times. DVCPRO and AVC-Intra only record on P2. That's the way it is. The AF100 is meant to be a low-cost camera, so it's AVCCAM. We are lobbying for a P2 version.

    Don't forget that Canon Global Expo happens every five years and it will take place September this year. They are almost sure to announce their new interchangeable lenses model to replace the Canon XL-H1, which although still being vaporware, will most certainly have the XF codec at least and bigger sensor, etc... For around $9K. Without the above mentioned specs, I don't see how Panasonic will seriously compete in this market share.
    Absolutely guarantee that this will not happen. Canon's already said that they aren't going to do this, at least not this year. Read Chris Hurd's article - he asked them about it, and he said the short answer was "no". The long answer was "noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooo."
    Last edited by Barry_Green; 07-08-2010 at 10:40 PM.


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    Thanks a lot for the detailed reply, Barry!


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry_Green View Post
    In fact, go make a list of all the cameras on the market that do 4:2:2 at under $30,000. Well, here, I'll save you the trouble and make a list:
    Panasonic P2 cameras
    Canon XF cameras

    That's it. Not any of the XDCAM-EX line, not any of the XDCAM-HD lineup, not the Red, not anybody. And the Canon is brand new to this; for the longest time it was a Panasonic-only thing to offer affordable HD 4:2:2.
    But that's an analysis of the past situation and I am talking about the present and near future. We know that untill now the technology was such that almost no camera in this price range was delivering 4:2:2 or 50Mbps... But everything is changing at the moment and, we're witnessing the rise of several game changing cameras from the major brands like the upcoming Sony 35mm entry level camera and the AG-AF100 from Panasonic. Also the Canon XFs just got here. This is the market I am talking about... And now that Canon (who usually arrives late at the race) delivered these specks on a fixed lens $7k camera, I expected Panasonic not to deliver any less than that. Specially when Panasonic is well know for pioneering in quality/price, as you well mentioned with the P2 cameras.


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry_Green View Post
    Then you don't understand bitrates very well.
    Am I that wrong to assume that 50Mbps is better than 24Mbps?.. and that the video quality of the first is better than the second? Maybe there are other subtleties I am not aware of but if that's the case, could you please elaborate on how 24Mbps can match the quality of 50Mbps. This would leave me more relieved and convinced to buy a couple of AG-AF100.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry_Green View Post
    You can use a nanoflash or kipro or whatever, and get better-than-Canon-XF-codec quality, if it's that important to you.
    I had thought of that... It's just that Convergent Design nanoFlash is not that cheap and would increase the overall gear cost reasonably.


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry_Green View Post
    We've been down that path many times. DVCPRO and AVC-Intra only record on P2. That's the way it is. The AF100 is meant to be a low-cost camera, so it's AVCCAM. We are lobbying for a P2 version.
    I hope it goes through...


    Quote Originally Posted by Barry_Green View Post
    Absolutely guarantee that this will not happen. Canon's already said that they aren't going to do this, at least not this year. Read Chris Hurd's article - he asked them about it, and he said the short answer was "no". The long answer was "noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooo."
    Yes, I read that article when it first came out but, considerably more recently, Chris Hurd himself stated quite the opposite. Maybe he got different info from his sources, or changed his mind. This is the statement in question:
    http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-xf...ml#post1545358


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikungfu View Post
    But that's an analysis of the past situation and I am talking about the present and near future.
    No, that is an analysis of today, right this minute, and for the foreseeable future. Everybody makes 4:2:0 and only 4:2:0, except for the 4:2:2 in Panasonic's P2 products, and the brand new Canon XF's. That's it. Until you get to $30,000, that is. At $30k and above, Sony offers XDCAM-MPEG422.

    And now that Canon (who usually arrives late at the race) delivered these specks on a fixed lens $7k camera, I expected Panasonic not to deliver any less than that.
    Panasonic already delivers MORE than that, and has for years. You can get 100mbps DVCPRO-HD in 4:2:2 on an HVX200 or HPX170. Heck, for $7,000 you can get an HPX300 and get 100mbps AVC-Intra at 4:2:2, which is the best recording codec ever released in a camcorder.

    But you can't ask them to give in one area, and not take from the other. Canon has 50mbps 4:2:2 on a 1/3" chip. Panasonic is producing the AF100 with an image sensor that is SIXTEEN TIMES larger. And interchangeable lenses. For less.

    Am I that wrong to assume that 50Mbps is better than 24Mbps?.
    Yes. Because one is MPEG-2, and the other is MPEG-4 h.264, and (especially in the Canon DSLRs) 50mbps of MPEG-4 pales in comparison to 24 mbps of AVCCAM h.264.

    Numbers don't mean anything unless you're comparing the exact same type to the exact same type. The Canon DSLRs use 50mbps of h.264, and the Panasonic HMC40 uses 21 megabits of h.264. Yet the HMC40's codec beats the pants off the Canon's.

    You can only compare like to like. Comparing bitrates, without accounting for everything else, is pretty meaningless. For example, in Sony's own brochure they say that 9 megabits of AVCHD is equivalent to 25 megabits of HDV.

    I have tested 21mbps AVCCAM AVCHD against 35mbps of MPEG-2 XDCAM-EX and found that the 21mbps AVCHD performs every bit as good in normal circumstances, and substantially better in extreme circumstances, than the 35mbps of MPEG-2.

    Yes, I read that article when it first came out but, considerably more recently, Chris Hurd himself stated quite the opposite. Maybe he got different info from his sources, or changed his mind.
    No, I'm pretty sure you misunderstood him. He was predicting that an interchangeable-lens XF camera would be coming. He was not predicting a large-sensor camera (like the AF100). Look at the post right before the one you linked; that is the post that Chris was responding to, and in it, the question was about a successor to the XLH1 (a 1/3" camcorder), not a question about a large-sensor camera.

    His "nooooooooooooooooo" was in relation to the idea of Canon producing a large-sensor interchangeable-lens video camera, which has pretty much nothing to do with the XF series.
    Last edited by Barry_Green; 07-19-2010 at 10:24 PM.


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    Ok Barry, thanks for the enlightening explanations!

    The AG-AF100 is expected to have protoypes in August. The Canon Global Expo is in September. The Photokina is in September...

    Something tells me I'll hold my choices till October. I'll have to purchase 2 or 3 new cameras. I used to work with Canon XL-H1. I'm aiming at two AG-AF100 in December and probably one XF305 in October. Guess I'll wait at least for the Canon Global before going for the XF305...

    I will also need a pair of nanoflash.


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    damn can't wait for af100 it's going to be epic. go panny!


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    It's ready for your wishlist...expected in December...

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...CAMCORDER.html
    hierarchy films

    "I am looking for a cinematic approach that will display more angles and creative sweeping movements more like a music video.
    I also want a video that will have a soundtrack that will set the theme of my wedding production and the end result is more dramatic.
    Can you offer me this in your video, if so then I will book too! Also can you work with budgets?"



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    Senior Member TomGruber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swyzlstyx View Post
    It's ready for your wishlist...expected in December...

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...CAMCORDER.html
    That's actually exciting to see.


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