Best export settings for...

[Rippie]

I currently have a Vegas timeline using Cineform transcoded files
at 23.98 1080p (12 min short film)

I need to get this timeline out of vegas so a different editor can cut
a trailer together in Final Cut Pro.
He will also be coloring the trailer footage in Final Cut.

I also need to get the footage to a visual effects guy and colorist
for the actual movie.

Any recommendations on settings for rendering
the best possible quality and file format for working with?

I just tried exporting a test uncompressed mov file but
only 8 seconds of footage gave me a 2 gig file
so I dont think that is going to work too well.

Any online resources that might help me out?

Thanks for the help

[PerroneFord]

For the FCP guy:

Both of you install the Avid DNxHD codec. And then you can render to it, and he can read your files into FCP seamlessly, and with colors intact.

For the VFX and colorist:

You don't say which version of Vegas you have. That will make a difference. If you have Version 9, ask if they can take DPX files. If so, that is what you should give them (Render As > Image Sequence > DPX) but it will create very large files, so you should be prepared for that.

If you do not have Vegas 9, then your best bet is going to be to render uncompressed or with the animation codec. If both of those are too large, then do a DNxHD 175 file and hand that off to them, asking both to install the Avid codec. While the Avid codec is very clean, it is a compromise from the other methods, but will preserve your colors and will go back and forth from PC <-> Mac without issue.

[Rippie]

PerroneFord thanks for the help so far.

Another quick question.
In Vegas when I render and choose .mov
Im guessing I should use 32 bbp color correct? or is 24 enough?
Im sure its 32 but just trying to get the file size down.

And right below that, the quality bar. Does that make a big impact on file size?
Where would a recommended setting be for that bar to lose very little if any quality?
Should I go full tilt and go 100%? or ?

And if I choose the animation compression what keyframe number is a good idea
for my situation?

Thanks

[PerroneFord]

Use 32bpc if you have an alpha channel. Otherwise use 24bpc. They are the same except for the Alpha channel.

As for what affects size, take a 10 second file and render it with the quality at 50% and at 100%. See if that makes a difference. For some codecs, it will, for others it won't. And see if you can detect a change in quality.

I don't use the animation codec. I prefer other options, so I don't know the answer to your question.

[Rippie]

I have a new question i'd love some advice on.
For my trailer guy I ended up doing a animation codec mov. Which is what he recommended as well.

Talking to my visual effects guy. He would like an image sequence TIFF files.

Using the script within vegas to export an image sequence the only choices are
jpg and png.
I know the png is a higher quality but is it as good as a tiff?

I switched all my preview windows to full quality (I believe the script uses the preview settings for the image output).
I'm exporting currently and seems to be working ok but its taking forever.

I opened a png image and the same frame in the quicktime animation codec file.
To my naked eyes they look identical.
So the question is,
what is the reasoning for wanting an image sequence rather than an uncompressed mov?
What does it bring to the table?

He mentioned wanting to use the program NUKE which i've never heard of.

Just trying to learn.

Thanks

[PDR]

I know the png is a higher quality but is it as good as a tiff?

It depends. They both are lossless, and both have options for lossless compression.

The difference is whether or not your application can use higher bits per channel (vegas doesn't, and I think internally is only 10bpc) , and what type of png or tiff you are using

The images vegas renders can only go up to 32bit total, or 8 per channel (thats 8bpc; 8 for red, 8 for green , 8 for blue, 8 for alpha)

Compositing software such as Nuke, AE, can go up to 32 per channel (32R, 32B, 32G, 32A)

png are only limited to 16bpc, but tiff can use 32bpc , so if you can render 32bpc tiff, it is better. (you can't in vegas, so it doesn't matter)

higher bpc is useful for compositors, because of reduced banding during intermediate calculations - it allows more freedom to do more

what is the reasoning for wanting an image sequence rather than an uncompressed mov?
What does it bring to the table?

The uncompressed mov only allows 8bpc. Where as a tiff could allow 32bpc, or png 16bpc . Also some prefer stills , because of intricate photoshop work

Ask your effects guy for more details

EDIT: I should add, the difference between 8bpc and 10bpc is huge when doing color corrections, effects etc.. , but the difference between 10 and 16bpc, not so much, and between 16 and 32bpc even less. 32bpc can be useful when incorporating HDR photos. If your initial acqusition was only 8bit to begin with (then converted to 10bit in cineform), the advantage is less as well (since the values are interpolated)

[Rippie]

PDR I appreciate the information.
This is a whole new world to me and Im glad you took the time to answer.

Since you seem to know Vegas well enough to know the limitations of the png exports
would you happen to know any better way to get this stuff out of Vegas or do I
just have to accept the limitations of the software?

You're right, the original files were 8bit avchd transcoded to 10bit cineform avi's.
I hate to think on export the timeline will go back to 8bit before it
ever hits a single effect or color, which I thought was the entire reason my original
colorist did the cineform thing.

[PerroneFord]

Since you seem to know Vegas well enough to know the limitations of the png exports
would you happen to know any better way to get this stuff out of Vegas or do I
just have to accept the limitations of the software?

Without using Vegas 9, you're doing all you can.

[PDR]

Just a word of caution on the DPX files rendered by Vegas 9 - they are actually 8-bit the last time I checked, but I'm still running 9.0a (there might have been an update in b or c to fix this, not sure). Perrone would know more about this than me

The tiff and png variants that vegas offers are definitely 8bit in 9.0a, and I don't see any options to render otherwise

If you are only doing "cuts" type editing, you aren't losing anything by staying in 8-bit since your acquisition was 8-bit. In fact it's less lossy. The 8=>10bit interpoloation and upsampling to 4:2:2 has rounding errors. It's only when you do the color corrections that working in 10-bit and higher precision is greatly beneficial, so if you leave that for the FCP or effects guy, and they work in 10bpc or greater, then it should be fine. But you do lose quality when converting Y'CbCr => 10bit 4:2:2 cineform => RGB internal vegas => another Y'CbCr export format. Each colorspace conversion and color depth conversion has slight rounding errors (in addition to compression losses, which are minimal for formats like cineform, DNxHD)

One option is to use 10-bit DNxHD as Perrone suggested, and let the your effects guy decompress his own 16-bit tiff images in software that allows for this

[Rippie]

You could still use 10-bit DNxHD , and let the your effects guy decompress his own 16-bit tiff images in software that allows for this

Would this be the best route to go in your opinion?
Or the better question is what route would you guys go?

I hate that I don't have a better knowledge of this stuff (im a production sound mixer) but I'm trying!

I really want to keep this the highest quality as possible.

Ive been rendering the png files all day. 2800 frames, I'm at 2200 now and its taken 9hours.
Ridiculously slow. Im wondering if I should just stop if they are only going to be 8-bit anyway.