Flash BAND Update

[Big Brother]

Hi ALL, I had seen NAB demo of Flash BAND update, are there more updates, or has any body laid their hands on that update for their HPX300 bodies. If so i would love to see more footage to necessarily understand it better.

Tx

[Barry_Green]

It's not going to be available until about June or July.

[Big Brother]

Ok. which means if i would buy HPX300 in next week then i will have to wait for that update. Or i should wait for my purchase till END of JULY !

If panny has demoed it successfully at NAB then why cant they launch i right away for our use.

[alexdias]

Big Brother, you should only buy your camera when you need it.
If that's the case right now and you can live with the rolling shutter issues, the 300 it's a wonderful camera.
I would not count on any "magical" fix for these problems coming anytime soon.
I've seen the proposed fix for the flash bands at NAB (on the floor, not on line) and it helps but it doesn't fix it completely.

A lot of people here seems to be waiting for some brilliant firmware update silver-bullet-kind-of-deal but that's a good way to become disappointed later.

We should listen carefully to Jan during her video interview at NAB: http://provideocoalition.com/index.p...asonic_hpx300/
She's very clear about the "short ends" of MOS technology and also the incredible features of this very reasonably priced camera.

So, this is what you get for what you pay.
It's up to us to determine if that's the right tool for our needs.

[David Saraceno]

My miseducated guess is that there will not be any fix for skew. I hope I'm wrong, but in watching the interview with Jan, she seemed to make it clear that skew is one unavoidable byproduct of CMOS.

And given her comments on how to address skew in practice by following the pan rules, I don't think much can be accomplished.

Basically, I see that you shouldn't buy the cam if you shoot in settings that are conducive to skew.

That I understand, but I wish it were otherwise.

[Barry_Green]

I would never advocate buying something that doesn't work the way you want it to, hoping that it'll be fixed later.

Evaluate a product for what it *is*. Not for what you wish it was. If it gets better later, then that's a bonus, but don't count on it.

[Big Brother]

Big Brother, you should only buy your camera when you need it.
If that's the case right now and you can live with the rolling shutter issues, the 300 it's a wonderful camera.
I would not count on any "magical" fix for these problems coming anytime soon.
I've seen the proposed fix for the flash bands at NAB (on the floor, not on line) and it helps but it doesn't fix it completely.

A lot of people here seems to be waiting for some brilliant firmware update silver-bullet-kind-of-deal but that's a good way to become disappointed later.

We should listen carefully to Jan during her video interview at NAB: http://provideocoalition.com/index.p...asonic_hpx300/
She's very clear about the "short ends" of MOS technology and also the incredible features of this very reasonably priced camera.

So, this is what you get for what you pay.
It's up to us to determine if that's the right tool for our needs.

Well what i saw from the Video i thought the FBUpdate is rectifying the issue to a good extent.

My miseducated guess is that there will not be any fix for skew. I hope I'm wrong, but in watching the interview with Jan, she seemed to make it clear that skew is one unavoidable byproduct of CMOS.

And given her comments on how to address skew in practice by following the pan rules, I don't think much can be accomplished.

Basically, I see that you shouldn't buy the cam if you shoot in settings that are conducive to skew.

That I understand, but I wish it were otherwise.

We dont have sports style of videography but what we do have is fast strobes from photographers, DJ Disco lights laser scanners et which are a matter of our concern. we do normal slow to medium paced pans to i guess the skew issue is not too much a hassle for us.

I would never advocate buying something that doesn't work the way you want it to, hoping that it'll be fixed later.

Evaluate a product for what it *is*. Not for what you wish it was. If it gets better later, then that's a bonus, but don't count on it.

I understand ; i think i should wait till the release & first hand try of the new Firmware upgraded HPX300 unit & then should i make my buy !

If not this then other camera i can buy in budget close to HPX300 is JVC700 or a much higher priced Legendary SONY PDW335 (yes its costly but then i get good quality @ a price point though)

[Cees Mutsaers]

Has there been an official announcement that there will be no firmware update for the skew issues. If there will not be some kind of improvement is this because it is technical not possible (although i read somewhere that the initial RED cams had a lot of skew as well and that it was improved a lot soince than by firmware updates) or because it will be to expensive to develop it and therefore commercially not interesting anymore for Panasonic ??????

What about the noise issues I keep reading about ?

[G.P.]

Has there been an official announcement that there will be no firmware update for the skew issues. If there will not be some kind of improvement is this because it is technical not possible (although i read somewhere that the initial RED cams had a lot of skew as well and that it was improved a lot soince than by firmware updates) or because it will be to expensive to develop it and therefore commercially not interesting anymore for Panasonic ??????

What about the noise issues I keep reading about ?

I am going to copy what the convo between Jan and I and what she said in response to my "rant" about the issues with Noise and Skew...

ME:

I think that everyone wants to know that the skew is being worked on is not just because of a control of jutter pan speed issue, but more of the fact that it has been noted that this is fixable (improved) by speeding up the read cycle of the MOS chips. Since this is public knowledge we are all kind of shocked that there is nothing being done for this to be tried out to improve its ability. Also Skew doesn't just effect pans, but handheld shots are pretty much useless. That is the big one. I keep seeing hand held shots that just look like jello. This is is both 1080p and 1080i modes. That means every time you want to shoot handheld and walk, the vibration from your foot hitting the ground travels up to your shoulder and into the camera, the result is the entire frame becoming very odd looking when someone is walking and shooting. Infact any vibration to this camera in 1080 mode will result in this.

That is not "controllable" as being said about a pan speed. If you shoot your work handheld this is something we cannot control, this is simply just unacceptable as a tool then.

Why isn't Panasonics team just accepting that there needs to be improvements in this area and working on it? Again its disappointing that we are getting the blame that we need to shoot differently, instead of at least trying to do the cycle speed up, such as other well known MOS chip cameras. Some of us have been shooting the same way for many many years, and audiences and clients are also used to seeing things shot a certain way... now it is being told that we cant anymore just because someone doesn't want to try and fix this problem? I just don't think that's right.

It just feels like a cover up instead of someone stepping forward and say "I am sorry but the skew effect cannot be improved and all production models will have this and there will be no improvement in the future as well". If that was said then at least people wanting to buy this camera would not have false hope of this issues being fixed via firmware update.

The other way is saying " We are aware of the problem, and although we dont have a solution now, we are at work trying to improve its ability" Another statement that could greatly be welcomed by the Panasonic buyers. But instead we keep hearing the same thing, as if there's nothing wrong? Is the reason neither of theses statements being said, because you guys just simply don't know if it could be fixed/improved, or because you know it cant be fixed, but if you put a definite on it, you could lose sales? ... I know that I will never hear you guys say that, but its a question i'm sure that is on the minds of many people who are aware of this situation.


JAN:

Hi,

At this point in time the answer that I can offer you is:
I am sorry but the skew effect cannot be improved and all production models will have this effect. It is a CMOS imager and there are ways to work with it.

Best,

Jan
__________________
Jan Crittenden Livingston
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems
Product Manager,
DVCPRO50/25, AG-DVX100B, AG-HVX200

End Quote.

Just so you know I added the bold to the cannot be improved part, she did not do that.

So I believe this answers the question towards skew. As for noise... Well maybe someone should ask the same question? I really feel that this camera needs to be severally tweaked in order to fit most peoples needs, its not an "out of the box" type camera... Which means hours of our time spent somewhere testing how settings effect the cameras noise... At the very least couldn't Panasonic do this in their lab, and come up with "low noise looks" or something like that??

I believe that the issue seems to be the sensor, and that's why they are not trying to fix the issues. because "fixing" them pretty much means rebuilding a sensor. I dont understand how this rolled out of production with these issues not fixed, but hey... its 7700 for a camera with the features of something in the 20k range... I guess you get what you pay for?

Where I stand with this camera is as follows... Will I use it? YES, Will I spend a ton of time making all the settings so that I have the least amount of noise and skew? YES. I am finally starting to see good footage come out of this camera and I think theirs hope. Seeing the JVC 700 I was shocked at how much noise there was on the CCD as well... maybe noise is a new trend?!

Anyway the camera will eventually be loved... Just pet it, and hug it, and sit in a room with a chart and light, and hope to god you can tweak away until things look good.

[Cees Mutsaers]

To be honest I think that Jan just said this so we wouldn't borther her anymore about the skew fix. If the RED guys can do it I trust Panasonic can do it as well (or was the skew of the initial RED cam much worser than the EX/HPX cams and is it after the fix on piar with the competition??).

Why didn't they just develop a 1/2" 3MOS sensor and they would have been way better than the EX cams !!!! Probably it was just a timing issue to come on the marcket with a native HD cam in this price point at all.

I am going to copy what the convo between Jan and I and what she said in response to my "rant" about the issues with Noise and Skew...



JAN:

Hi,

At this point in time the answer that I can offer you is:
I am sorry but the skew effect cannot be improved and all production models will have this effect. It is a CMOS imager and there are ways to work with it.

Best,

Jan
__________________
Jan Crittenden Livingston
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems
Product Manager,
DVCPRO50/25, AG-DVX100B, AG-HVX200

End Quote.