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    #21
    Mr. Hollywood Blaine's Avatar
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    I think this would be a hard sell to the fans of westerns. You don't usually see graphic sex scenes in a western. These felt like they were her for titillation and shock value.

    I think it would have been more in Wiley's character to just kill both her and her father. If he didn't when Charlie shows up later, I'm sure he would have as evidenced in this passage:
    CHARLIE (mid-40s), a full-dark beard, a black leather suit, one of Wiley's cronies walks up and shoots Henry's forehead for a second time. Beatrice shrieks.

    WILEY
    Atta boy Charlie. Now can ya point
    the gun at my slut of a girlfriend?
    (to Beatrice)
    Hey whore, don't move.

    Charlie moves his gun to Beatrice. Wiley turns Henry's body
    around, loosens Henry's belt, and tugs down his pants.
    Again, I just had a hard time believing the inconsistency of their actions.

    I also think that an the old man in his 60s would have bled out long before he had the chance to pull her very far across the desert. After all, he had been shot at least twice with no apparent medical attention having taken place.

    I could probably say a lot more about it but it seems that others already have and I'll just say that I have to agree with Lawrie on this one.


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    #22
    Member xxrotinivol2's Avatar
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    Bruce Willis -- Die Hard. Bleeds a lot, no medical attention. He's fine. If Randolph is able to walk the shots wouldn't have shattered his knee cap or anything. This isn't "Goodbye Solo" or anything. I'm not going for realism.

    Wiley wants to teach Beatrice a lesson, he doesn't want to kill her until she up front denies him, the magic number 3 times. Charlie is trying to impress Wiley and show his loyalty by already shooting at a dead body.

    Graphic sex this is not. Sexual violence this is.
    Last edited by xxrotinivol2; 03-29-2009 at 02:39 PM.


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    #23
    Senior Member lawriejaffa's Avatar
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    My friend, you've had 3 comments from different people remark about how the sexual content came across as basically 'exploitation' and not as the means you intended it. (perhaps more than 3)

    NOBODY is suggesting you were actually trying to write western rape porn lol rest assured of that. But please accept the criticism don't fight it - we're all on the same side.

    If you send your script for a director and he reads it then you don't get to forum reply him with any justificiations over his mis-interpretation of your intentions. He'll simply think it and move on.

    I'd say you've got a few thinking this about yoru script so obviously that is highlighting something needing fixed. Its not because we're prudish or wimpish or naive about the action nihilism of Die Hard :P

    Giving advice is hard but taking advice is far harder!

    Let me give you an example

    //

    Wiley hikes up Beatrices' skirt with his gun and puts the barrel to her butt... Wiley brings his head even to hers, bobbing it up and down.

    WILEY
    Tasty? Oh I know how much you like that taste.

    //

    Hehe right so we have slightly juvenile sexual dialogue and an sympathetic description of a rape/molestation. What you are describing would be traumatic and uncomortable to the audience - so your script must reflect that.

    Heres an example i rattled off that attempts to de-tittilate the scene i quote abstractly above.

    Beatrice claws at Wiley as he smacks her. Dazed, she whimpers in pain as he grabs greedily at her skirt. A pathetic attempt to humiliate her ensures when Wiley places his gun barrel by her exposed buttocks.

    Wiley, a childish buffoon in heat, clutches her head and presses it crudely to his groin in a vain emulation of fellatio. Strength returning, Beatrice tears her nails tear into his wrists, but he is gone. Laughing like a child, beads of sweat dripping.

    WILEY
    Hehe Tasty? Oh I know how much you like that taste.

    I think you might hopefully see what i mean by that example, its not sex your describing, its violence and you have to make sure of that. Truth is there is no sexual violence - just violence. I should just add that despite the discussion and so on - this isn't a huge mark down - we're just discussing to help. I think the story and 'angle' is good! I like it - i really do and i promise you that - but i think it needs rewording imo :P
    Last edited by lawriejaffa; 03-29-2009 at 03:06 PM.
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    #24
    Mr. Hollywood Blaine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxrotinivol2 View Post
    Bruce Willis -- Die Hard. Bleeds a lot, no medical attention. He's fine. If Randolph is able to walk the shots wouldn't have shattered his knee cap or anything. This isn't "Goodbye Solo" or anything. I'm not going for realism.

    Wiley wants to teach Beatrice a lesson, he doesn't want to kill her until she up front denies him, the magic number 3 times. Charlie is trying to impress Wiley and show his loyalty by already shooting at a dead body.

    Graphic sex this is not. Sexual violence this is.
    I was very tempted not to give you any feedback because I saw how defensive you were getting about it. But I took the time to read it and since the purpose of the forum is to give feedback, I felt you deserved that courtesy.

    The story you've written is no Die Hard.


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    #25
    Member xxrotinivol2's Avatar
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    Thanks Blaine, thanks Lawrie, and thanks everyone else who has responded. The more critical the better, I'm just trying to explain the puppy. It would've been sweet to have written Die Hard, and I'm thankful for your feedback.


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    #26
    Senior Member lawriejaffa's Avatar
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    Yep xxrotinivol i hope my example helps put across the point i mean? What do you think Blaine?

    Blaine's given great feedback on these threads so its worth taking note But we're all peers - my last script was contraversial rotini - it dealt with a public official who murders his own infant child (wow a real sell for pulpfest... what the hell was i thinking lol)
    Feature: LORD OF TEARS - A New Legend in Horror - Pre-Order Now http://www.lordoftears.com/


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    #27
    Senior Member Tim Joy's Avatar
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    I couldn't connect with this at any level, and I was trying. I didn't see any point to it all.
    Sorry I can't be more helpful, but I think you have some chops, and maybe a different story and some characters that I could relate to at least a LITTLE bit and you would have something.

    imagining this as a produced movie, I couldn't see myself watching it for very long, and it might be hard to cast the part of Beatrice.


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    #28
    Senior Member REHov520's Avatar
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    I liked this one in it's unrelenting cruelty. I think the western genre is one of the few that would allow this sort of story to work; the lawlessness of the west allows this sort of extreme evil to exist and grow.

    Lawrie touched on this before, but I think with this subject matter you have to be extremely careful in your use of language. You have to become as detached as possible. If you use indulgent language it will be as if the writer is getting a kick out of these heinous acts, but if you use unbiased, detached language, it will seem more as if Wiley is the only one getting a kick out of it. I think you should do a rewrite and just try to change the language to become as detached as possible.

    Also, I thought we might benefit by knowing more about Wiley's background, but then I thought more and now I'm not so sure. I thought of the Joker from the Dark Knight, and how he's just an unexplained, natural force of chaos with no backstory. And that worked. Still, there seems to be something missing with Wiley. Maybe it's because it's a short, or maybe it's because it's just a script and we aren't able to see his performance. Still, I want to know something more about him other than that he's a cruel, murderous bastard.

    Regarding Charlie at the end, I like that you're trying to redeem humanity a bit, but I think you're hitting us too hard over the head with this point. The "may be an outlaw" line is just too obvious and literal for me, and the fact that it's the title of the script just pushes it over the edge for me that you're trying to make one very specific point. I'd lose that line, maybe change the title (?), and make that whole scene more subtle and natural. Maybe Charlie doesn't even have to speak at all? Let the audience come to their own conclusions about what Charlie does and what that means, don't spell it out for them.

    Still, a very moody, nihilistic story that I'll remember for a while. You've got the mood and story down, so with an overhaul of the descriptions and some work on the characterization I think this could be a pretty awesome script.


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    #29
    Senior Member RodThompson's Avatar
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    ...(thinks of something to write)...

    Okay, um...well...my first thought was a bit rude if read unlike the way I would verbally deliver it. So, I'll keep it to myself, because the joke will be lost and you most likely won't laugh.

    Now, for the script itself...just too damn brutal and worthlessly raunchy. The dilogue, when not talking about blow jobs, staggered and just had me saying, "Who would say that?" Honestly, and I'm not being a prick, but the subject matter mixed with the unnatural flow of dialgoue pulled me so far out of the script I just gave up.

    Now, I know you're thinking, if you didn't finish it, why are you posting something? Well, that's an easy one. Because you need to hear it, or you may find yourself in this position again.

    While you may have set this in the west, it's not a western. It's seriously like Lawrie said, a rape fetish, soft-core porn. I get the whole jilted lover gig, and this necrophilic act is his way of getting revenge, but the very well written script is written about something no one wants to read.

    I mean honestly, a dude leaning over a dead guy forcing a chick to blow him with a gun on/in her ass? I just can't get over this...

    If this were SexFest, or something of the likes, this would fit right in...but I'm sorry. For an awesome writing style, the story completely kills the cred.
    Last edited by RodThompson; 03-30-2009 at 10:58 AM.


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    #30
    Senior Member MrKilloran's Avatar
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    um... I've gotta agree with a few of the reviewers here, there could have been a more... elegant way of going about this.

    I think the cruelty is clear and has potential but description wise it comes off merely as exploitation cinema and not much more, missing some quality.

    It sort of falls flat, I got nothing out of your characters so that when Charlie has that moment of redemption it felt hallow, maybe you should have him more opposed to Wiley to show or hint that he has something deeper throughout the script.


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