P2 - Shock and Vibration Resistant?

[tverhaar]

As I contemplate the purchase of a new (HD) camera, after careful consideration, I was convinced I'd go with a Canon XH-A1. Good experience with Canon, right price, met my needs, etc, etc.

But (!) one of the things I want to do is shoot from a moving bicycle on a fairly regular and ongoing basis. To that end I have been designing/building a camera mount for a bike (that's a whole other story) but as I was testing it with my old GL-1, I noticed that the vibration of the camera caused some jittering and fluttering on the tape. (Duh!)

So, I started working on the design of the mount to spring load it and otherwise damp the vibration. I have had much success on that front and I am sure it will all help my end result. But, I am not at all sure I can get the perfect trade-off between damping the vibration to keep from ruining the tape drive and keeping the shot steady. Also - I really don't want to ruin a $3500 camera by vibrating it to death.

Here's the question - can all my woes be solved with a P2 solution? Since there is no moving tape mechanism to "jitter" and get "whacked out" will an HVX-200 allow me to mount the camera on the bike and avoid the rolling and stuttering in the picture from the tape? I realize it won't address the issue of vibration/shaking/movement within the scene (I'll work with the mount and my FCS software to adress those issues) but can I use the camera in this fashion and get steady recording AND not ruin my camera?

Thoughts from HVX-200 owners? Am I asking too much here?

Thanks a bunch.

TVH

[daveswan]

Phew! I think you may be in trouble here. Certainly the P2 card itself will take the vibration, my concern is the lens and sensor block, specificly the optical image stabiliser which has freely mounted componants. I suspect these will be the weakest part of the whole deal, and would be expensive to repair, and probably not covered by your insurance.
If anyone else knows better, I'm happy to be corrected.
Cheers,
Dave

[VenezuelanD]

In short i believe the answer is yes. Take a look at this article written by Marc Singer about the HVX over at able cine.

It should answer your question.

I dont think the sensor or the lens should be an issue, but you should probably turn off the optical image stabilizer.

Also if you have professional insurance and not a rider built into your home owners insurance it should be covered. Call your agent and talk to them about it, shooting from a motorcycle is nothing new to the film industry.

[tverhaar]

shooting from a motorcycle is nothing new to the film industry.

Thanks for the input. I'll check out the article.

Just for clarification, I will be shooting from a bicycle, not a motorcycle. Makes for less cushioning - without the larger tires and the suspension of the motorcycle, the bike creates higher frequency vibration.

TVH

[Arson]

P2 is solid state and will last longer with vibration than a delicate spring loaded tape. The vibration from a bike will wreak havoc on your tape speed by bouncing the spring in the tensioning system in the long run if you use any kind of tape.

I would suggest buying a bunch of used "disposable cameras" for in the $200 range. And just replace them as you trash them. Or rent, then you can put the wear and tear on the rental camera, like the pros do.

You also have to consider you are moving an expensive piece of electronics in traffic at bumper height with no police escort to keep cars away. You will eventually smack that camera into something, or something will smack into it and need to replace it. If a car doesn't trash the lens, dust and gravel will, which will require you replace the filter often or worse the lens.

[Barry_Green]

Talk to Kaku Ito. He shoots mountain biking, and I believe he does a lot of shooting from the mountain bike itself. He's extensively tested most nearly all the HDV camcorders and the HVX. Might have some relevant experience for you.

[Kaku Ito]

Mounting hdv cam on bike never works. I think it is the result of the rolling shutter effects that make the whole video melting from low frequency or small vibrations even with all the vibration dampings. I think solid state is only way to go.


Rember there was someone trying to do glidecam mounted HDV shooting but never got successful. Then some peeps mention about mounting HDV cams in the NASCAR and no problem, so I tried to mount cams with absorvers and everything, also trying to keep the cam mounted really tight so it does not create secondary vibration, but then video wubbles like rubber.

Barry, do you think vibration affects and result in continuous rolling shutter effect in certain degree?

Anyway, I gave up and migrated back to DVCPRO HD, but it is very true that the optical portion of the camera might get broken.

So far, the helmet cam or anything that does not wubble on the frame (the little cordless gum size camera) with DV gave me the best result. You body is the best absorver, and not having secondary vibrations seems to work really good.

By the way, although the resolution seems to be not that good but mounting Sanyo DMXHD1 gives you pretty good result but be carefull the tripod mount is made with plastic and it would pop off from the vibration.

[Justyn]

I shot from a helicopter today and P2 worked like a champ.

[Omegafilms]

I went to a Panasonic P2 demo Wed. and this is straight from it. The cards will handle a 15G shock and 150G vibration. The HVX and P2 cards were the only camera to film the entirety of the Iditarod without freezing. The P2 stores were another story but the cards and camera are tuff lil cookies.

[tverhaar]

Thanks to everyone for some great comments. My thinking on this continues to evolve - with all of your help.

Arson - I agree, the potential for damage is there but I don't expect to be shooting with car traffic and only rarely will I bring the camera down to road level (depending on the flexibility of my camera mount design). That said, I have recognized that things can fly up and in those cases I am planning some sort of plexi guard for the lense to protect from flying debris.

Kaku - thanks for sharing your own experience. It is helpful to know what doesn't work and what you have found to work best Did you ever find out more about NASCAR? It seems that any camera that could survive that level of vibration and shock, for that long, would work on a bicycle. I hear you on the body/helmet mount but I really didn't want that "look" of the camera shifting and bouncing around following eye movement. I was looking for a more stabilized "cinematic" approach, if that makes any sense.

I'll have to check out the Sanyo.

I went to a Panasonic P2 demo Wed. and this is straight from it. The cards will handle a 15G shock and 150G vibration. The HVX and P2 cards were the only camera to film the entirety of the Iditarod without freezing. The P2 stores were another story but the cards and camera are tuff lil cookies.

Omega - Good information. I remember seeing that in a Panasonic brochure or sonething. I was aware of the Iditarod thing and that is what made me think the HVX-200 might work for me.

I actually have an old VHS tape produced by a company in San Luis Obispo, CA a few years back with some really nice footage shot from a mountain bike on a trail. The perspective is from just behind the handlebars (you can see them in the lower third) and it gives a great sense of the bikes movement without any shake or wobble. Perhaps I can find them and see if they will share their secret.


The conclusion seems to be that the P2 cards have it way over a tape mechanism and will take the abuse. The remaining question is whether the rest of the camera (particularly the image stabilizer) will suffer. Does turning it off effectively "lock it down" or is it still going to bang around? Beyond that, are there other moving parts in the rest of the camera that will be in jeopardy?

Thanks again for all the great thinking! It will surely save me time, frustration and money going forward!!

TVH