Panasonic HVX 200 vs. JVC 110

[SweetFilm]

New member, first time poster. I'm in the market for a quality HD camera, looking for some comparison info. I own a DVX100a and have shot with HVX200, but not in love with P2 workflow and hate the zoom control. A friend has the JVC and loves it. Must admit, I like the ergonomics of it, the shoulder mount, and the fact you can adapt film lenses to it. Wondering what are drawbacks. Anything out there on on the Panasonic vs. JVC HD cams?

[Jim Carswell]

They really are two different animals. One is HDV the other is DVCPROHD. Different codec and different specs. The HVX produces much more robust video. Specifically 4:2:2 and 100mbps. That's twice the chrominance and four times the data rate. Thost two pints alone sold me on the HVX. After all it's the video on the screen that really matters. The ergonomics you can get used to. The workflow you can get used to.

Just my two cents worth.
Jim

[SweetFilm]

Afraid I'm an old film guy, still learning HD and all its variables. Ergonomically speaking, are there adapters for the HVX zoom control to make it better/friendlier?

[Barry_Green]

The HVX has a true manual zoom. Just turn off the power zoom and use it manual.

Its power zoom is not competitive with the servo zooms from other manufacturers, but its manual zoom is true manual. It'd be nicer if we could find a longer zoom pin though.

For HD110 info, we recommend you check out the JVC forum on DVInfo, it's probably the largest JVC HDV forum on the web and has some great information and good solid members who will be able to advise you about that product.

[SweetFilm]

Thanks, Barry, I'll check 'em out. Definite likes about both cameras. Do like the ergonomics and zoom of the HD110, but that DVCProHD is nice. Any comments re: motion artifacting and/or edit stumbles using HDV?

[Barry_Green]

Lots and lots and lots and lots of that information has been posted here before; dig through the archives and you'll find many articles and perspectives from both sides.

[wgzn]

i absolutely hate EVERYTHING about the HDV format (the HD format the JVC shoots) i have totally written it off as the "8-track tape" of video. wont work with it unless im absolutely FORCED TO

[Barry_Green]

Blanket proclamations are only useful in your particular circumstance, or to your particular standards, but don't apply to all users.

Many of us feel similarly to wgzn, and there are also many on the other side who are thrilled that they now have a way to record high-def footage on a $4 tape. For some of us the limitations of HDV are enough that we avoid it, for others they don't even see a limitation at all, all they see is that they're empowered at an unheard of price point.

Each point of view is valid, and each user's proposed usage should evaluate the pros and cons to HDV before making a commitment as to whether to use the format, or avoid it. The format is capable of producing brilliant-looking footage; we have enough examples from A1s and HD100s that that particular point should be put to rest. But whether you're comfortable working with the footage and its particular requirements and its potential restrictions: that's where the decision comes in.

[SweetFilm]

Agree with Barry's comment about blanket proclamations, but would be curious to know exactly what wgnz hates about HDV.
Part of my unknown vis-a-vis formats is not knowing what particular requirements I'm going to need, as most of my work is handed off to post houses. Is one format better if you use post houses vs. editing yourself, for instance. Same variable question applies to ergonomics, to a degree. I will be digging through archives!

[wgzn]

HDV doesnt handle rapid camera or subject movement well. one symptom ive seen in EVERY piece of HDV footage ive ever seen is what i call a "hiccup" but ive also heard it called judder or jitter. like if you pan a scene - one particular example i saw from a canon test was a pan with a bicycle from above on a bridge. every couple of seconds there was a very brief stop - almost imperceivably brief, but still there, in the video. then there is the compression artifacting, motion ghosting and of course the limited colorspace.

if you are doing locked-down, feature type work then HDV may be fine. but for anyone who does run and gun or shoots a variety of subjects, i suggest strongly AGAINST HDV

it also is a pain to get a good quality SD, DVD from hdv source footage. and it doesnt integrate well into a graphic situation like aftereffects

i tested all three higher end HDV cams at that time, the sony, jvc and canon and they all exhibited the same issues.
thats why when i got the demo footage disc from panasonic and tried it out in my workflow i sold all my SD gear and bought he HVX the next week. made one of the best SD DVDs id ever seen outside of a major production studio. and graphics in from aftereffects lay in with zero problems!

[SweetFilm]

I was wondering if that might be the case with movement. The little reading I've done on the HDV codec led me to believe that might be an issue Thanks for the info.

[Barry_Green]

Post may be an issue depending on what frame rate you shoot at, and how you intend to deliver footage, etc. For example, I think (but could be wrong) that Avid doesn't even support JVC's 24P HDV yet. You can edit 30P, but not 24P on Avid. Don't know about other editors, I presume support's there but you should definitely check.

Then there's tape/deck compatibility; JVC tapes will only play in JVC equipment. If you're working with a post house who has a Sony HDV deck, don't go in there with your JVC tapes, as they'll be completely unusable.

If you instead deliver your footage on hard disk you can bypass that incompatibility, and then you're back to the does-their-editor-support-24P question; I believe FCP does so you *should* be able to deliver 24p to just about any post house provided they have at least one FCP suite, and provided you bring the footage in on hard disk.

The biggest limitation in the HD110 series is that they can't shoot HD "reality"-looking footage (meaning, 720/60p). You have to step up to the HD200 level before you get that capability. Every other HD camera on the market supports either 720/60p, 1080/60i, or (in the case of the HVX) both, but the JVC HD100/HD110 doesn't. So if you're going for shooting live events etc, and want to use the normal 60i/60p "video" look for those events, you can't. You could do it in standard-def 480/60p, but not high-def.

If you want to delve into the footage issues, look back around mid/late 2005 and early 2006 in the archives, there was incredible traffic about the JVC series and how it compared to the other cameras. Just be aware that people frequently learn how to adapt to whatever particular circumstances they need to, so looking at the more recent examples would probably show a better picture of what's possible (i.e., after people figured out what all the quirks were and how to compensate for them).

[wgzn]

it most definitely is an issue. seems some folks eaither cant or wont see it. but i cant NOT see it...

it may be like that rainbow effect that you see when you blink when watching footage on some projector formats. ive heard that some people just arent physically able to see it while it drives other people batty

[John Godden]

HDV doesnt handle rapid camera or subject movement well. one symptom ive seen in EVERY piece of HDV footage ive ever seen is what i call a "hiccup" but ive also heard it called judder or jitter. like if you pan a scene - one particular example i saw from a canon test was a pan with a bicycle from above on a bridge. every couple of seconds there was a very brief stop - almost imperceivably brief, but still there, in the video. then there is the compression artifacting, motion ghosting and of course the limited colorspace.

if you are doing locked-down, feature type work then HDV may be fine. but for anyone who does run and gun or shoots a variety of subjects, i suggest strongly AGAINST HDV

snip



I can concur on this one. I'm using the HV20 (HDV land) and I've been VERY dissapointed with the captured video when there is low to modest motion in the camera or subject. "locked down" this camera is fabulous though, but otherwise, quite aweful. :crybaby: . IMHO. I'm just a newbie though, so perhaps other people can master HDV motion artifacting.

Good luck

Regards
JohnG

[jorbedo]

Do you want to make Chromakeys? Not so easy with HDV.

4:2:2 and 100Mbs is the way to go, we had been doing a lot of chromas with the HVX200, it's perfect.

JVC for me it's only useful because the interchangable lens, that's it.

JB

[hunter richards]

Please refer to this post, the difference is night and day.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=50288

Go to the "clincher"

Thanks by the way to Barry Green for taking the time to make it!

[SPZ]

Here's my take on the subject:

Objective Advantages of each camera:

JVC

The JVC 110 has the advantage of interchangeable lenses, shoulder mount form factor, cheap media capture/archiving, and true 24p (the HVX too). An HD ready JVC 110 is also cheaper than the HVX with P2 card nowadays. Sharp picture for 720p; Excelent Focus assist.

HVX

DVCpro HD capture. 4:2:2 color capture. 1080i/p, 720p and 576 (My experience is with the pal model, which I own and work with); Variable frame rates (Very good for commercials); Leica Dicomar fixed lens- better than the competition at the price range; P2 workflow (specially for ENG- news coverage).

CONS:

JVC

HDV capture- 4:2:0 color sampling. 25mbs compression for HD signal in an Mpeg 2 stream (Notice that mpeg2 is actually a more efficient compression method than dvcpro HD's mpeg1 based dvcprohd. However, HDV is long GOP- compression in a group of frames- vs dvcpro HD's intraframe compression- each frame compressed individually- this is what causes HDV's blurriness on Panning and fast movement); lacklustre stock lens- haven't tested it troughout, but general consensus is that purple fringing is a nightmare with the lens; 720p and Pal or Ntsc sd only.

HVX

Fixed lens; Chromatic aberration when shooting at night, at certain conditions; Image not Crispy Sharp (But definetly HD); P2 archiving an issue; P2 card size limit (with 32gb cards this will be a non-isue); Terrible LCD, and Focus assist is nowhere near as efficient as JVC's approach. OIS has glitches.

Subjective Pros for each camera

JVC

Shoulder mount, more "professional looking"- its reassuring for some clients. Ergonomics. Focus assist is a joy to work with, with Red line showing you picture in focus.

HVX

Handheld form factor. It can still pass as an non-intrusive camera. Nice balance. Works well on Glidecams and dv calibre support gear; Panasonic's Cinegamma- the colors are just incredible, the gamma very filmic- it has the best looking picture of all cameras in the price range ( In my opinion). Good Ergonomics.


I might have missed some points here and there, but overall, I hope this helps.

Cheers

Spz

[SweetFilm]

Wow, Thanks Spz! That's a great rundown, and a nice, concise comparison. Think you covered all the bases for me. Much appreciated to you and all in this forum. Follow up questions:
Specifically, what is "OIS"? And generally, is there any talk of an improved zoom control/focus assist coming to market anytime soon for the the HVX, either via Panasonic or aftermarket suppliers?

Regards,
Chris Rogers
Sweet Film

[SweetFilm]

Thanks for the link to Barry Greens comparison shots, Hunter. And yes, too, thanks to Barry Green for taking the time to make them. Sez a lot.

[Barry_Green]

Remember those shots are meant to show the extremes. In normal shooting circumstances the HD100 can produce fine footage.

[wgzn]

OIS = optical image stabilization. kind of a "consumer feature" in my opinion and hardly a reason to judge a pro camera. i circumvent focus issues with the HVX by using an external HD monitor and a bebob remote focus.

[SPZ]

OIS = optical image stabilization. kind of a "consumer feature" in my opinion and hardly a reason to judge a pro camera. i circumvent focus issues with the HVX by using an external HD monitor and a bebob remote focus.

Well, try doing handheld ENG with the HVX and OIS off. You'll find that this feature is actually quite important in "professional" use.

If the HVX was shoulder mounted, however, OIS wouldn't be such an issue. In a Handheld form factor, OIS is very important.

[wgzn]

i shot ENG type stuff for years without OIS and nobody ever complained - but then i cut my teeth on big-ass, heavy old betacams.

thats why im about to pull the trigger on about $2k worth of zacuto shoulder/rails kit... to try to get some of that control back