DVC PRO 50 VS DOWNCONVERTED 720p

[jfisher]

hello everyone.

i am producing some content for food network. i have to deliver a beta master, but i'm planning on shooting with the hvx.

which setting will produce a better SD image when transferred to beta, DVC PRO 50 or downconverted 720p?

thanks
jf

[D.L.]

I'm not sure as far as resolution goes but I would shoot in Pro50 and transfer that to your Beta Master. If shooting for SD stick with SD (Pro50). On the other hand there are several on the board that have shot HD and transferred to a Beta Master and it works great for them. The other obvious benefit of HD is if you shoot 720PN you'll get more P2 time than the Pro50. Color sampling is the same 4:2:2 in either mode. I don't think you'll see a difference but maybe others will chime in.

D.L.

[TimurCivan]

DVCpro50 is farless compressed than the 720p. Plus you can shoot in 4:3 native. (unless you need 16:9 cause it can do that too)

DVCpro50 is a far underutilised tool in the HVX's arsenal.

[Barry_Green]

DVCPRO50 will produce a sharper image with less compression than downconverted 720p will.

[TimurCivan]

Wy does it wind up sharper? shouldnt downressing produce sharper pictures?

[THoff]

You wind up downressing twice, once from 1080 to 720 in the camera (by a factor 1.5), and then again from 720 to 480 in software (again by 1.5). If you can go straight from 1080 to 480 (by 2.25) you avoid the interpolation and rounding of the intermediate resizing step.

Also, the 720P format is more highly compressed than DVCPro50, that's not helping either.

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

THoff took us to school.

Lol. Thanks for the explanation. :)

[TimurCivan]

gotcha.

[jfisher]

thanks fellas.

i know this is sort of an age old debate. personally, i've found that whenever i shoot hd, i always get some kind of oohs and ahhs from the client about picture quality, regardless of whether i deliver an hd qt file, a digibeta, or a dvd-r. maybe it's because my lighting and color corrections are so impeccable?

p2 storage wise, i should get at least 30 minutes of dvcpro50 per 8gb card, yes?

thanks again for all the info. it is greatly appreciated.

jf

[Barry_Green]

DVCPRO50 = 16 minutes per 8GB card.

[David S.]

Actually then, when shooting for SD DVD, DVCPro50 is probably the better election.

[jfisher]

if you get about 20minutes of dvcpro100, how come only 16minutes of dvcpro50?

thanks

[Barry_Green]

Because DVCPRO-HD is more highly compressed than DVCPRO50.

[bikefilms]

Depending on your needs, you may enjoy using the slow and fast framerate effects only offered in the 720p modes. You may shoot mostly in DVCPRO50, and a few special shots at 720.

I recently did something similar and it worked really well. I shot to minDV tape most of the time, and shot some special shots in 720. I then dubbed the slow motion 720 to the tape using the in-camera dubbing feature. Slick.

-andrew

[TimurCivan]

the in camera dubbing is the coolest thing the hvx200 does. so usefull.

[DrMario]

The DVCPro50 recording of the HVX-200 is what made me love the camera right off the bat...until I started shooting in 720pN/23.976. Then I made the HVX my wife.

Beautiful stuff, even downrezzed for DigiBeta, Beta or DVD.

While there's more compression, most of my clients think it looks better because it doesn't have the video "look".

[TimurCivan]

well the HVX will do that to you............ :)

[jfisher]

again, thanks to everyone for their insights.

after this rigorous and informative debate, i think i'm going to shoot 720pn - i can use the xtra 4 minutes or record time per card, and like drmario said, while the compression numbers make the pro50 appear more appealing on paper, i feel like theres a "wow" factor with 720pn, even downconverted, that i just don't get when i acquire in sd. not sure why its there, but its there. my real interest in shooting pro50 was the incorrect assumption that i would get double the record time of pro100. thank you barry for clearing up my misconception on that.

thanks again. i'll let you know what kind of response i get from the food network.
jf

[jfisher]

scratch that.

i forgot about aspect ratio. all the sample segments they gave me were 4:3, so i'm going to shoot mine in the same ratio, which in fact means i will have to use the pro50.

thanks again. all you guys rock. i love this online community.
jf

[JitCam]

dvc pro 50 is the best thing since tapeless cameras, lol, really though for SD is great.

[heavyG]

Even though they gave you 4:3 samples, 16:9 will future proof your show. HD across the board for everyone is not too far down the road, and after everyone is forced to switch- 4:3 will seem like bad B&W content.
You can frame 4:3, and deliver that if they absolutely want it (and keep the 16:9 for future use) but I suspect that you where shown this footage because they didn't have 16:9 samples.

G.

[THoff]

Yes, you can have the HVX display 4:3 guides (DISPLAY SETUP -> SAFETY ZONE), which would help you to record a future-proof 16:9 HD version.

[AshG]

I wish we could ban the phrase "future-proof" it means nothing and it a marketing term that should be reserved for the "salespeople" at Best Buy. Compelling content that is well shot and directed will always find an audience.

To the question at hand... if you DO shoot in 720p I recommend cinelike V and very flat colors. You dump it in an uncompressed SD timeline, THEN do the color correction. All that said, DV50 holds up better for SD most the time.



ash =o)

[dvInsight]

To the question at hand... if you DO shoot in 720p I recommend cinelike V and very flat colors. You dump it in an uncompressed SD timeline, THEN do the color correction. All that said, DV50 holds up better for SD most the time.



ash =o)

Ash, I have always wondered about bringing in any of my HD material from the HVX and working in an uncompressed timeline to get better color, transisition fidelity, etc.

Have you ever done any A/B comparisons between and uncompressed timeline vs DVCPro HD timeline to see if you got more out of that work flow?

Just curious?

[THoff]

I wish we could ban the phrase "future-proof" it means nothing and it a marketing term that should be reserved for the "salespeople" at Best Buy.Fair enough -- when you read my previous post, everyone please mentally substitute "less obsolete" for the offending term.

[jfisher]

wow, i didnt expect this to get all philosophical and stuff - with all this talk of future proofing, free will, predestination, and what not.

seriously though - i believe i will do the smart and professional thing and offer the 720p vs pro50 choice to the network and see if they're interested in "future proofing" or "content obsolesence reduction" .

will let you know what they say

[Antoine_Fabi]

In Final Cut Pro, i get the best results shooting 720 and downscaling in a 720X480 Uncompressed timeline using the "best" scaling setting.

It looks a little sharper (very little) than native DVCPro50. The improvement is very subtle, but it's there...

If you dont use the "best" scaling setting, native DVCPro50 footage will look better than 720p.

[lipslide]

In Final Cut Pro, i get the best results shooting 720 and downscaling in a 720X480 Uncompressed timeline using the "best" scaling setting.

It looks a little sharper (very little) than native DVCPro50. The improvement is very subtle, but it's there...

If you dont use the "best" scaling setting, native DVCPro50 footage will look better than 720p.

How do you adjust the quality of the scaling that takes place in Final Cut?

[AshG]

The more you "tweak" the footage, the more you gain in an uncompressed timeline.

As far as 720p dumped into SD being more sharp than DVCpro50 native? With images that have any red or brown, I dont agree. I actually find the DVCpro50 more crisp. Drop them both in an uncompressed timeline, color correct and hit render... then make a DVD... I think you will see what I am talking about. DV50 is a great codec. I could fool most people on this forum into thinking SDX900 DV50 footage was actually HD...




ash =o)

[Antoine_Fabi]

How do you adjust the quality of the scaling that takes place in Final Cut?


Go in the Sequence settings, then in the video processing tab, then select "best" motion filtering quality. This ajusts (among other things) the scaling quality.
You can also select Render all YUV material in high precision YUV if you have any color correction. The rendering quality is thus better.

I personnally prefer this image over the native DVCPro50 anytime, because you have a HD archive and the flexibility to edit SD.

The only drawback is that the HVX produce a little noisier image in HD than in SD, because like Barry said, DVCPro50 is less compressed than DVCProHD, AND the HVX is a little cleaner in SD to start with (even before recording to P2).

Good luck.