hpx vs. red - which one will win?

[eddavid]

What do you think?

[Barry_Green]

Different products aimed at different customers.

[JitCam]

i think a better v.s would be... hpx v.s hvx with hydra

[Mr. Blonde]

Apples & watermelons.

[Drew Ott]

Grapes and watermelons.

[Flintstone]

What about grapes and grapefruits? lol

Hydra 4:4:4 beats HPX500's 4:2:2..... but 2/3" beats 1/3" in many ways!

Solution? Get both! ;-)

[jmtari]

Hi, I think the HPX500 win because.....it already exists! :)

Jean-michel
www.jmtari.com (http://www.jmtari.com)

[JitCam]

yeah i think the extra ccd size does a lot.. also consider there is a different lens on the hpx.. probably better than the hvx's, not sure.

[Flintstone]

... also consider there is a different lens on the hpx.. probably better than the hvx's, not sure.Yeah! No kidding!

Of course, the HPX is cheap at $14K (body only), but you could easily spend as much for a lens. :beer:

[Masta T]

I think hpx will win. Its cheaper, and its an eng cam, more flexibility.

Theres more need for news and tv coverage, than film.
When more and more local tv stations want to switch to hd. Hpx looks like a perfect choice.

[joe 1008]

If you have the budget and work mostly on drama - go with the RED.

If you need a camera for many different purposes and you rather work for TV the 500 might be the easier and better choice.

[Grug]

different cameras for different needs - hpx is an eng camera, red is a digital cinema camera

[ddh]

I think HPX with Hydra would be a wonderful camera!

[Shiloh Arts]

This is a silly dicussion altogether; just focus on generating quality content. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

[dougster77]

Lol, maybe the news and ENG needs to be more cinematic... It might make the Anna Nicole Smith story interesting....

[evinsky]

Despite all the flaping the Red really is in competition with the HPX. Most will not be able to afford both. The real difference is in the flexabiltiy of the Red, even if you never used the full imager or 4K you would still be able to buy a good cheap used 16mm zoom lens and have 2K RAW 4:4:4 data for the same price. The HPX500 is a wonderful camera but it's built on an aging paradigm. For some it certainly will pay the bills but it's not a camera to grow with. Now if it were the same price as the HVX we might be talking, some may say that's not reasonable, but the same people would have said Red was impossible for it's price. Welcome to the brave new world.

[Jan_Crittenden]

Evinsky,

I think this is a little naieve. I do not see that for the price of a cheap used 16mm lens and a Red that you are in the same place. You still need something that will record your signal. And the image starts with the lens. Is that something you want to cheap out on? Are 16mm lenses outside the laws of physics and therefore CA won't be a part of the picture in a cheap lens as it is migrated to a different type of imaging system(film vs sensor)?

The "aging paradigm" as you call it is actually a very useful paradigm, it is a self contained package that allows for a easy movement with access to controls in a manner that it can be virtually second nature. This is not something that you want to have go away. You don't want to have to be concentrating on where you are putting your hands and where the controls are, you want to be able to concentrate on the picture story. I wouldn't call it aging, I would call it tested, tried and true.

As far as growing with the HPX, I question that as well. It may not be a growth camera for you, but many it will cover them for the next 5-10 years, which by that time everyone will be delivering in HD, and not SD and HD. You can buy it with the CAC lenses, if you need to kick it up a notch you can rent a 35mm lens set up or a cine style lens or a $30,000 lens like the one we had on one of the cameras at NAB. Point is a one piece camera-recorder is not a dead or dying idea, it is a need for a good majority of people that shoot and produce program material.

Best regards,

Jan

[smelni]

I agree with most of what Jan is saying. Having attended NAB I saw both cameras - and I saw the amazing footage that red showed.

However, I know exactly what I am getting with the HPX for 24,000 (camera, lens, batteries, cards) - and exactly how it will work. With Red, the 17,500 body will frankly i think cost closer to 30-35K when all is said and done to take advantage of it. And since it is on the bleeding edge there will be multitudes of workflow and user issues. i am not saying it isnt an amazing camera. But if I am spending a small fortune on a camera and want to sell the concept to clients I would prefer the predictability, supportability and usability of the HPX. This may change in a few years after RED is tried and proved. But it is not right now. The amazing footage by Peter Jackson - was done by someone with unlimited resources. That is not what most people have at their disposal.

I was one of the first HVX buyers in NYC - and there was plenty of growing and bleeding edge pains - but it was only a 10K investment so it was worth the risks. For 30K that risk becomes heavier.

Hence, I am getting an HPX. In a few years maybe a RED. But for now i think the HPX is the superior choice when all is taken into account.

just my 2 cents

[mmm]

The most important thing for me is a camera that works properly whenever and wherever it is required to. Being a brand new company, I can't assess how reliable any of Red's gear will be yet and have heard nothing about support in the UK.

Also, I think people are getting a little excited by the idea of 4K. Where and when is all this resolution going to be seen? Are they planning Imax releases for their indy films? I'm sure many will find a use for it - for example if you what to shoot hi res stock footage, but generally, the simplicity, track record and the fact it is actually a real camera I can buy today makes the HPX a lot more appealing.

If all I shot was single camera drama, I would hold out for Red to be released but for the wide range of work that I do, Red One would be a less convenient tool than the HPX.

Picture wise, I'm sure both would be beyond adequate.

[GaryinCalifornia]

This may change in a few years after RED is tried and proved. But it is not right now. The amazing footage by Peter Jackson - was done by someone with unlimited resources. That is not what most people have at their disposal.


Wow... someone else gets it... yes I've been feared of saying such things and being banned...

Please no nasty pm's either....

Once the Red hits the market and has proven itself... I think it'll be an awesome camera that will do some great things... in the hands of talented filmmakers...

[Isaac_Brody]

Despite all the flaping the Red really is in competition with the HPX. Most will not be able to afford both. The real difference is in the flexabiltiy of the Red, even if you never used the full imager or 4K you would still be able to buy a good cheap used 16mm zoom lens and have 2K RAW 4:4:4 data for the same price.

Well Red doesn't record audio on board, so in that way I don't see it competing wth the HPX at all.

[Mac]

I've said elsewhere that I wish Panasonic had thought a little more about the form factor of the HPX (for those of us that live with a camera on our shoulder)... It's a very nice camera and the controls are all intuitively placed, based on years of - yes - an aging paradigm...

BUT there are minor things, like the fact that (because there's no tape drive and the only things that really have to line up are the lens and the chips) the whole thing could be lower and wrap around your shoulder more (like the new super16 Arriflex)..

The battery could be mounted low and sideways in back with the audio inputs above (to lower the center of gravity).

The cards slots could be in back (above the lowered battery) to make the body thinner...

Then I look at the Red.. Boy, I really like that Flash Gordon look and all those cool grips and the CRT finder tube..

But do I really want to have it on my shoulder for hours at a time? Can't tell, because I haven't seen all the parts in one place.. But...

For documentaries the potential of Red would be overkill...

Neither is perfect - yet - and even though I did have an opportunity to take over another guy's deposit on Red, I bought an HPX500 - and I'm shooting with it this week.

[Kenn Christenson]

Well Red doesn't record audio on board, so in that way I don't see it competing wth the HPX at all.

I guess the 4 balanced audio inputs on the side of the Red One go nowhere? http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1119

[alexdias]

I was under the impression that the RED One had 4 audio balanced inputs.


Well Red doesn't record audio on board, so in that way I don't see it competing wth the HPX at all.

[alexdias]

didn't mean to be repetitive. I didn't see the prior message!


I was under the impression that the RED One had 4 audio balanced inputs.

[Isaac_Brody]

Ah, I stand corrected. I thought they'd scrapped those.

[BigPoppaPump]

It too saw both rigs at NAB and the fact of the matter is that the Red footage was all shot on prototypes. I wonder how the process was. I'm sure there was an engineer on site to manage the bugs. Plus, we are in another engineering delay with the Red. I thionk in time, the red will be a solid product. However, the HPX right now is tested and proven technologyu and is a diverse product. You can do everything from cinematic style work to news on it and for some of us, it means being able to stay working.

I probably will own both someday, but I'm not ready to drop coin on a Red. I want at least a thousand to roll off the line before I buy. Its like buying a new car the first year out of Detroit. Always problems. Wait til year 2 or 3.

[FutureDVXUser]

If Reel-Stream makes a Hydra or something for the HPX, it'll probably compete real well with Red... right?

[Jay Nemeth]

Porsche vs Flying Car. I still haven't seen the flying car go over my neighborhood. The HPX500 is sitting here with the rest of my camera gear ready to go out on a project.

I'm not sure why some people are referring to the HPX as an ENG camera. It has the same form factor as a Sony f900. On any given day, Panavision has f900's in about one third of their prep stations. These guys are shooting features and episodics, not news. Luckily, there has been some standardizing on camcorder design so DP's can grab most any camera and start shooting without the learning curve.

The Red will be an amazing camera. Once the hardware, recording medium, and post workflow have proven themselves, I'll take it for a spin.

In the year that I've had the HVX200, I've dragged several post houses kicking and screaming into the 21st century. "No tape? We need tape! Give us tape!!!" they would chant. As soon as I force fed them a hard drive, and held their hand thru the whole process, they were sold. I recently did some work for an FX house in New York. They had given me their request for tape formats, but when I told them I could shoot on P2, they said, "Great, send us a hard drive."

P2 is here and it works great. I've shot over 400 cards worth of material and never had a single glitch or problem.

These cameras are just hammers for building your house. 4K is awesome, but it doesn't make you a better storyteller. Stop waiting and start shooting.

Jay

[JimiK]

Hey Jay can you post some footage without having to download,because I can't do any downloading on my computer and I would like to see any 500 footage.
Thanks a million.
Peace

[Jay Nemeth]

I'm gonna get with Barry and see how to do that. I've never figured out how to post screen grabs.

[Barry_Green]

For screen grabs, click on the "member upload center" at the top/center of each forum page and it'll take you to a place where you can freely upload up to 10 megabytes of pictures. Then to include a picture, paste the link that the "member upload center" gives you.

[Jim Brennan]

These cameras are just hammers for building your house. 4K is awesome, but it doesn't make you a better storyteller. Stop waiting and start shooting.

Jay


Bingo

[waefre]

What do you even mean when you say win? If we're just talking about which will sell more then of course the Hpx has a slight advantage as its already here. Its also marketed by a huge existing company. On the other hand if we're talking about making movies for the big screen the red seems to be made for that very thing and should win hands down.

[AJ101]

Blah, Blah, Blah