Yaaay! new section!

[USLatin]

Can someone post some comments on this camera?

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=112115&catGroupId=14616&surfModel=AG-HPX500

[TimurCivan]

it looks GREAT.

[USLatin]

I read about it a bit but I wonder what about it makes it worthy of a whole section on DVXuser besides the price tag

[Flintstone]

Because it's the HVX200's big brother?

Think of it, if you need a shouldermount main cam, and also need a cost effective B-cam, the HPX-HVX combo is a great match!

[USLatin]

hummmm... 14k is awfully close to the 23k needed for a RED with a zoom lens... hummm... I know that's not the greatest comparison but you get my point

[AJ101]

I need to shoot now, here's my 25K. Gimme a red with a zoom lens......

[Erik Olson]

Yeah, I've got shows shooting now and for real. USLatin, when are you getting your RED?

Please stand by. Please stand by. Please stand by. Please stand by.

It isn't a comparison until there is a commercially available product. Let's stop talking about it please.

e

[AJ101]

Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[USLatin]

lol... sore subject?
didn't mean to hut anyone's feelings just making a quick comment

It looks great honestly... though the only real upside besides the nicer lens would be the 2/3 chip... humongous up-side, yes... but is it worth the investment when compared to all other cameras with 2/3 chips? Is 14k too much or are there other things about this camera I haven't considered?

again, I am asking, not pointing fingers

[Barry_Green]

What other 2/3" camera are you considering? Even Sony's 1/2" F350 is twice as expensive as the HPX500...

[USLatin]

that's part of the answer to my question exactly... I haven't been looking at 2/3 cameras so I have no clue how the HPX compares and stands in the market place...

so what's the next 2/3 camera's cost? do they include other things beyond the HPX's line of gadgetry? Is this camera a complete 110% winner then? Is it the only in it's class?

[Erik Olson]

I just don't understand these threads. I really, really don't. To me it's comparable to asking if you should wait for the Millenium to come out when the Platinum was the a-cam at Panavision.

There's always something new coming. If the HPX is just hitting the street now, how can we possibly be talking about next-gen in an HPX500 thread?

I'm really excited about this one. I've been shooting the closest thing to it from Sony for the past year in the CineAlta XDCam F350. You needn't look further than the base format of XDCamHD versus DVCProHD100 for an answer to the "best-in-class" questions.

Forget any of the other features in the HPX - like 2/3" imagers versus 1/2" in the Sony and on and on and on. This is a slam-dunk as far as value for dollar goes.

e

[USLatin]

what do you mean "next-gen"?

I am asking out of pure curiosity and the smaller need to know what's out there beyond my reach, since I will not be buying a better camera for a long time (though you never know).

Ok, so it seems this is a revolutionary development which cuts the cost of a 2/3 camera by more than half what it used to take... great news... is there a link to some footage?

[Barry_Green]

Put it this way: last year's darling SD camera was the 2/3" SDX900. Massively popular, widely regarded as one of the best SD cameras ever made. 24P/30P/60i, DV or DVCPRO50, 2/3" chips etc.

It cost $27,000 for just the body, maybe 2 years ago. Last year it dropped to about $17,000 for the body.

The HPX500 body is retailing at half the price the SDX900 was, and (once you factor in the value of the included cards, if you were to sell them on ebay) is still barely over half the cost of what the SDX900 dropped to!

And that's for a high-def, 1080 & 720, variable-frame-rate 2/3" camera.

Look at the only competition: the JVC HD250? That's a 1/3" HDV camera, not 2/3" DVCPRO-HD, and if you sold your 16GB cards on ebay you could get the HPX500 for about the same price as an HD250 body-only.

Sony's F350? That's the closest thing you'll find on the market, in that it's interchangeable-lens and sort-of variable frame rate, but the HPX is full 2/3" chips, it's DVCPRO-HD instead of XDCAM, and it's half the price of the F350. Half the price, for twice the imager.

The HPX500 is a screaming deal for a 2/3" camera. If you want to compare at the same price point you could get a Sony DSR450WS, which is a 2/3" camera that does 24p, but it's SD ONLY! No high-def, no variable frame rates, it's just a 2/3" standard-def DVCAM product. Yet the HPX500 is a thousand dollars less than the DSR450.

Digital Betacam? Sure, you could get a 2/3" Digital Betacam camcorder; it's a better recording format than DVCAM but it's still standard-def. Would you rather shell out $49.700 for a 2/3" standard-def DigiBeta camera, or $14,000 for a high-def variable-frame-rate HPX500? (especially since the HPX500 does DVCPRO50 too, which is a directly comparable format to DigiBeta)?

That's why I asked what you were comparing it to. If you don't know what the competition is, you don't realize what a bargain the HPX500 is compared to the other products on the market.

[TimurCivan]

Now youre making me want an HPX500 even more.......

[Kenn Christenson]

I don't know why Sony insists on staying behind the curve - like Avid, I think they're going to pay the price.

[USLatin]

Now THAT'S what I was hoping for! Thanks a million Barry! (again)

Now I feel like I know what's up in the entry 2/3 world...

Holy smokes! $12.5k at Abel!
The 2/3 is for sure worth the price jump alone! Now does it do more fps or the same as the HVX or do you get the full gamut like in the Vari? the lent in interchangeable, is it a PL? what mount?

Also, Barry, did you mean that you get a free 16GB card for the 14k or what other deals are you talking about?

I will look up all of these answers myself but I would love to hear them from one of you guys who've been looking at this puppy for a while (probably more like a trained German Shepperd)


EDIT: So the 12.5k is without a lens right?

[Barry_Green]

Now does it do more fps or the same as the HVX or do you get the full gamut like in the Vari?
Same as the HVX.


the lent in interchangeable, is it a PL? what mount?

Same as all other 2/3" cameras, B4 mount. Not PL.



Also, Barry, did you mean that you get a free 16GB card for the 14k or what other deals are you talking about?
Not "a" 16GB card, I'm talking about four 16GB cards. Abel and Spec-Comm are both listing a package at $13,500 that includes the body, tripod plate, and four 16GB cards.



EDIT: So the 12.5k is without a lens right?
Correct. Cheapest with-lens package I've seen listed is about $20,000.

[USLatin]

Same as the HVX.


Same as all other 2/3" cameras, B4 mount. Not PL.


Not "a" 16GB card, I'm talking about four 16GB cards. Abel and Spec-Comm are both listing a package at $13,500 that includes the body, tripod plate, and four 16GB cards.


Correct. Cheapest with-lens package I've seen listed is about $20,000.


FOUR 16GB cards?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! HOLY MOTHER OF PANA!!!!!
That means you get it for just a few grand more than an HVX?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

This is certainly something to be happy about, but I hate to see that my HVX is already not the way I would go if I had the cash in my hands again!

Well... let me calm my arse down... so the lens is not factored in and the HVX comes ready to go... that plays a big factor... but... let me ask you please if you are still around tonight (or whenever possible):

I see the other threads about lenses and the HPX, but being a noob to the lens world, what are the cheap options and more importantly, what are the better options on terms of glass you would want to use with this camera for drama use?

[Barry_Green]

Cheap lenses will be the bane of us all, but it's going to be something we have to deal with.

HD cameras used to cost $80,000, so it wasn't much of a big deal to stick a $30,000 to $60,000 lens on there. But now that we have a 2/3" HD camera for $12,000, I think it's going to be the rare HPX500 owner who realizes the value of the glass and springs for the $30,000 lens. instead, they're likely to go with the "package" lenses, which are valued at somewhere around $6,000 to $8,000 (street price).

And while they're fine for the price, they're not premium. They're inexpensive, and corners will get cut when you do that. That's why the Chromatic Aberration Correction function was added -- to try to overcome the limitations of an inexpensive lens.

With a fantastic lens on there, you'll get great results. With a cheap lens on there, your results will be limited by the lens. It's all up to you as to what you want to spend, because you get what you pay for.

The cheaper lenses are offered because hey, they recognize the realities of the market, and in context with the price tag it does make for a great combination. You're talking about a 2/3" HD body, lens, four 16GB cards, tripod plate and VF all for a street price of under $20,000. Just don't expect an optical doubler, the CAC function, or a lens that's immune to "breathing" etc. It's a killer deal, but it's not a $60,000 lens.

Of course, you could always buy that $60,000 lens and have the best lens going, and it'll work with the HPX500 and probably deliver the best results the HPX500 is capable of. But if you're going to spend that much, you're probably not going to get a $14,000 (MSRP) body to mount that lens to, so... we're back to square 1.

The point is, there are lots of options. Lots of cheap options, if you want to use SD glass. Lots of very modestly-priced options (like the package lenses) if you want genuine high-def glass, just low-budget glass. And lots of fantastic options, if you can pay for it (or rent it).

[USLatin]

Hummmm... It seems there will be a lot of people buying the HPX with the "package lenses" and hoping to rent full-on glass for budgeted drama projects...

I think if I had the opportunity to buy into a camera now Id do this:
HPX with package glass, rent glass when worth it, and Ebay two 16GB cards ASAP.

Again Barry, thank you so very much for your answers (or as I think of them: lay-outs).

How would you rate the HVX's lens on when compared to these "package lenses", SD, HD-budget and the 20k and up categories?
I know you would gain mechanic focus and iris, and that you would be looking at completely different specs and all... but in terms of quality... well, the question is still kind'of a gray as could be type of question... but if you care to comment I am sure you know what I am hoping for in the answer...

[Barry_Green]

Well, hmmm... not sure how to answer that, since there's no way to actually compare the built-in lens against another lens. Comparing interchangeable lenses is easy because everything else stays the same: same chips, same DSP, same recording format, the only difference is in the glass so if you see a difference, you know you can attribute that difference to the glass.

But with a built-in lens there's no way to separate it out to isolate its effects...

I'm quite impressed with the HVX lens for what it is. True manual zoom, precise manual focus, sharp images and reasonable C.A. performance. But consider that the HVX lens and camera body together cost less than any of the package lenses for the HPX500... and how do you judge?

I've only really got any experience with one of the package lenses, the Canon 7.7 with doubler. It performed decently, it breathes, it has fantastic range, but it was also a preproduction lens on a preproduction body so I don't really want to be held to saying that it's representative of what the production models will be. Fortunately production HPX500s should start hitting the stores very very soon and we'll start getting real-world reports from users as to how the final product really performs.

[USLatin]

Thank you for the anwer Barry. Allways learning uber fast from you.

This camera really is a killer product! If you plan to distribute to DVDs and only wonder about projection then this is an amazing deal.

Being that there is allways room for improvement no matter how ridicolously amazing things get, I wonder if there juuust might be a few things in the HVX that will be taken a step further.

It seems this is the way it will come out since it is allready spec'ed in the Pana site, but if there is still any hope for a last minute surprice... then are these even possible yet:

_ full gamut of fps at 1080p
_ 1080pn
_ 24/96 audio

The main thing for me would the the fps being available at 1080 since I really miss the 22, 26 and 60p and I really don't want to shoot 720

1080pn just sounds possible... it actually sounds easier for the hardware to handle than the 60i it does now... so why not?

The 24- bit 96KHz on camera audio would be AWSOME, but I doubt it will be implemented untill it is a super cheap thing that they can just throw in... then again! I just bought a little Tascam US-122 wich converts AND physically bypasses it's internal pre-amps... it is just a chip... so it can't be the hardware that's keeping this out of the cameras... so I guess it might be the bit-rate... is 24/96 too much info to add?


I am feeling so bitter-sweet about this camera... on one side I think that it will rent cheap and that I will be owning a 2/3 camera much sooner than I though, and that is will have all that the amazing HVX ha to offer... BUT on the other end I want to take out a loan for 30k right now!!! hahah.... sooooo tempting!!!!

Once/if/whatever RED comes out then the diference will be that it will have a PL, and that you will be able to grow with it even if you stick to 1080p recording till you can afford the 2k(+) workflow... but why go RED now other than the depreciation factor --which might be a big deal (!?)-- if what you are working towards is DVD release with skimp possiblilities of theatrical... unless you are overly concerned with your festival projections but if you go RED cause of that then you might be able to afford it anydays...

So for people like me and (much!!! :) ) further up, why not get an HPX since by the time you need RED there will be actual competition in that segment... yes there are most likelt 1001 reasons I mised... but do you guys agree that the HPX IS a deal even when/if/whatever RED comes out...

I understand it is a sore subject for many with the gargantual amount of anticipation speculation and arguments regarding RED... but... do you guys feel the same as I do about the HPX? That there will be a big amount of people who will go HPX even if they could make it a bit into RED territory?